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Trying to gain understanding...
I keep questioning a lot of things I read and hear these days. The below devotional was one I read yesterday off my YouVersion Bible App plan "From Faith to Faith". This lines up with the teaching of my own Pentecostal church. Yet as I read this, I didn't get the same message they're giving. I wonder if I'm wrong in my thinking or if they are or if it's all a matter of God meeting each of us where we are or what. My comments come below the devotional:
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Tithe With Joy
by Kenneth Copeland
“And it shall be, when thou art come in unto the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance…that thou shalt take of the first of all the fruit of the earth...and shalt go unto the place which the Lord thy God shall choose to place his name there.” Deuteronomy 26:1-2
Tithing. Most Christians aren’t very excited about it. But they should be―and they would be if they understood how to do it properly.
Scriptural tithing stirs up faith. It activates the power of God in our lives when we do it in gratitude and joy, expecting our needs to be met abundantly.
In Deuteronomy 26:8-9, God told the Israelites exactly what to say when they brought their tithes. He instructed them to acknowledge the fact that He had brought them out of the bondage of Egypt and to say:
“The Lord brought us forth out of Egypt with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with great terribleness, and with signs, and with wonders: and he hath brought us into this place, and hath given us this land, even a land that floweth with milk and honey.”
What does that have to do with you and me? God has done the same thing for us! He’s brought us out of a life of bondage and poverty into a life that flows with the abundance of God.
So when you bring your tithe to the Lord, follow the example set by the Israelites. Make it a time of rejoicing. Make it a time of realizing anew the glorious things Jesus Christ has done for you.
Thank Him for delivering you from a land of darkness and scarcity and bringing you into His promised land of plenty. Thank Him that it is a land of mercy, a land of joy, a land of peace and a land of prosperity.
Tithe in faith, expecting the rich blessings of that land to be multiplied to you. You may soon find it to be one of the most exciting things you can do.
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So Copeland is saying that we should thank God for bringing us out of darkness and into His promised land of plenty...whether we've actually reached a land of plenty. And my thoughts on this are, God did not tell the Israelites to offer the firstfruits when they left Egypt, but to do so when they received those fruits, when they entered the promised land.
Now don't get me wrong, I thank God daily for those things He's teaching me, for the bonus I received, the bracelet and message from a friend, for my son, home, job, car, etc. But to me, thanking Him for something I haven't yet received? I know that God's Word is truth, and yet isn't thanking God for something I don't have the same as lying? I thank Him for what I know He's GOING to do in my life and for what He IS doing, but I don't say Lord thank You for prospering me financially when I'm financially struggling. My church however teaches that this is the way to prosper financially, to first believe that we already have and then receive it. And it's like the other day, I felt God said to me....who was believing He was going to create the world and man before He did so? It seems like it's this WOF type teaching, that we have to believe we already have it in order to get it and frankly...well...I don't get it.
Can someone give me some thoughts on this? And if we're truly supposed to speak as if we already have something, how does one reconcile with something they feel so strongly is a lie. If I'm not happy, I will NOT go around saying that I am...although that too is something my church says. I can say that I feel awful today, but I'm praying God lifts me up and I know He'll help me get through it. But to say, "Oh I'm great! I feel fine!" when I do not...it makes me cringe. And to say God has prospered me, rather than I know God WILL prosper me, or I know God promises I will prosper as my soul prospers and all in His time, etc....the first makes me feel as if I'm lying, and secondly like I'm trying to force God into doing something or like I'M in charge of what I get instead of God. And it somehow all seems wrong to me.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Richard L. Broch, Sr. on
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Hi Char,
Add my name to the Copeland un-fan club.
BUT, if we could add other positive ways the Lord works in our lives.........we could be thanking and praising Him as things happen. The prosperity people always attach income to the picture. There are countless other issues.
For instance, I agree with Mary O, regarding Matthew 21:22," And whatever things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.". (NKJV). Faith is a major element as we receive blessings.
The children of Israel, from the Red Sea experience through the next 40 years in the wilderness, are an excellent example of Christians today.
God was continually taking care of them whether they were praising Him or complaining (mostly complaining). It was almost like He literally carried them the whole trip. But, He saw most of them through, along with their sandals.
It seems there is a fine line between "name it, and claim it", thanking God for something not received yet, and God working in our lives. Char, I wouldn't be happy in that church.
Good discussion. What's WOF?
"Don't be sorrowful, the joy of the Lord is your strength."
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Seek,
We can claim the promises of God's Word that are meant for us, but one must first determine if the promise is for us. Not every promise in the Word of God is universal. One must also seek the will and plan of God for their life understanding that our will is to be submitted to His. Just because we may want something does not mean we will get it no matter how much or how little faith we have. When we read the Bible we must look at the whole Bible. When we see a verse that says ask and you shall receive and then we see another verse that says asking anything according to His will and you shall have it we recognize that the two cannot be in opposition. I cannot believe at one point I can have anything I want regardless of the will of God and at the other point believe that it must align with the will of God. The answer is that the first is bound to the truth of the second and thus they are in harmony. Our asking always has to be in alignment with His will and plan. James tells us that people did not receive what they asked for, not because of a lack of faith, but because of wrong motives.
I will make only one other point and stop in an attempt to keep this brief. If faith is the only key to getting what we want what do we tell the Christians around the world who have just had their village raided, the men killed, women sold into sex slavery and children sent to work in the mines? Do we tell them that if they only had enough faith this would not have happened to them? Surely there is faith in the camp, but if we were to say "maybe not" what about the faith of those praying for them around the world ... is there a lack of faith there too or is there more to asking than just faith and believing in advance that God will grant you what you ask? Let's go to a different part of the world where a group of believers were locked up in their church facility and the building torched with them inside, did they lack faith? Let's go to another part of the world. How many parents who love Jesus will bury their children today because of starvation? Shall we tell them that if they only had enough faith their child would have lived? How many examples of what appears to be bad things happening to children of God before we accept that faith is not the only component involved in our life under the reign of Christ?
Our life in Christ is not all about this life. This life is but a mist. What we do here is of value, but our gaze must include eternity and not simply be temporal focused.
Note: I repeat the following point. Faith is a key component to life in Christ, but it is not the only component.
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Permalink Reply by Seek on
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Actually LT, this is what I believe I'm having the most trouble with. There are a handful of leaders in my church who seem to do just that. They claim that person doesn't have enough faith. I see what Richard and Mary are saying, with regards to Matthew 21:22," And whatever things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive." And that is where I've been getting. Believe I WILL receive. However this handful of leaders say we need to talk as if we already have received it. Here's the biggest instance that has bothered me.
I questioned one of these men one morning on something he had said to me that I didn't understand. When he started explaining, I mentioned that I've been standing on the word, but things keep going bad in my life, and before I could finish explaining how I keep reading and praying, but I'm trying to figure out how not to let all this that is CURRENTLY happening discourage me, he cut me off at things keep going bad and talked over and me and said, right there is the confession of your mouth and what you're always going to get?
That was 2 or 3 months ago.
Last night he did the preaching and preached this exact message that I felt he was particularly aiming at me because of that discussion and the words he used in his message last night were identical.
Yet in this message he preached last night, he quoted slow to speak, quick to hear and slow to anger. And yet he wasn't slow to speak or quick to hear with me previously. He cut me off, guessed at what I was going to say, and turned on me what I did say to mean something totally different so he could "preach". I guess it's a personal failing of his, but he certainly didn't encourage me that day we spoke. He actually shot me down and emotionally hurt me for awhile. And I'm finding this....never ever say things are going wrong in your life is not Biblical teaching.
Yes JB, I've read all of Romans. I've also read all of 2 Corinthians. Paul has a lot to say. 2 Corinthians 1:8 We do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about the troubles we experienced in the province of Asia. We were under great pressure, far beyond our ability to endure, so that we despaired of life itself.
If Paul would've said that to this guy in my church, he'd have cut Paul off and told him he was always going to have troubles and despair of life cause that's his confession. Paul expected God to pull him out of the trouble, but he didn't go around and lie and say he had no trouble. And this is becoming the problem I am having with that particular belief. And if one believes that, I say more power to them. I do not put down their choice of belief as long as they believe in Jesus Christ as the son of God raised from the dead, the rest may vary from place to place and not hurt the body. But it is those who want to force that belief onto others and then shoot down MY belief that does hurt the body.
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Seek,
Let me give an example from my life. A few years ago we had a guy come into our community claiming to be a "faith-healer." He believed erroneously that God wants every one to be healed in the physical and that if one was not healed it was because of their lack of faith (lack of faith can hinder our healing, but faith will not trump God's will). My assistant invited him to a home Bible group I was leading and he attended it one night. He waited patiently to play his hand, all he was interested in was getting the subject turned to healing, and then he unloaded his belief proclaiming all these healings and explaining how God's wants you healed and you must activate that healing with your faith, etc ...
After a bit I interjected and challenged him on two points. 1) I mentioned Paul and his thorn, but quickly stated that is the one most go to pointing out how Paul was not healed. I admitted we are not 100% sure what his thorn was in the flesh. Then I stated that I want to look at a different one in Scripture. I asked if he thought that Paul would be considered a man with, if not great faith, at least strong faith? I also asked if he thought Timothy, Paul's son in the Lord and leader in the young church, would be viewed too to have strong faith? He agreed on both counts. I then asked why Paul told him to drink a little wine for his stomach problem instead of praying to be healed, or asking him to come to Paul to be healed, or be anointed and believe you are healed, etc ... He did not respond. Some one here on AAG when I posed this to them stated that Timothy's issue was not that big a deal. I disagree. It was a big enough deal to be recorded in the letter to Timothy and recorded for us to see 2000 years later. It troubled him enough that they had discussed it and Paul thought it warranted addressing. Take this a step further, even if it were not a big deal it is still a deal, an infirmity that was wrong with Timothy's body. Therefore either God does not heal every physical infirmity, or this really was not a BIG DEAL (which I reject), or Paul and Timothy lacked enough faith (which I also reject). 2) The second question I asked was if God wants everyone healed and if all it requires is enough faith to be healed every time, why do you wear glasses instead of being healed? The man stammered, so I reposed the question and he muttered that evidently he did not have enough faith to heal his eyes ... yet he proclaimed to be a faith healer and that many were healed in his ministry because of our activated faith, and yet he has to wear glasses .... go figure.
All things are subject to the sovereign will and authority of Jesus. He has given constituted authority to Satan for a time. We have many promises in the Word of God. Some apply to us and some do not (i.e. do you want to claim the promise of Sarah at age 90?). all that we ask for must align with God's Word and His will, of this I am certain and unshakable. If it is in alignment the fulfillment of the promise is sure and the gates of hell cannot stop it. If it is not in alignment with God's will and His Word we ask amiss. Our assurance is when we know that it is aligned with both ... and this assurance often comes from God after many hours/days/months praying and reading His Word ... and is not because I, you or someone else simply spoke it.
Will add another point in a second posting.
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ROFL! Ummm I think I need you to come give that speech in my church. LOLOL
Not all in my church do believe this way, but the ones that do were really making me feel terrible with the way they would speak to me.
I mean, I do believe God wants us healthy, but some of it is up to us, some up to Him, and some maybe not in His will for other purposes. But praying for health and then doing nothing about my own health with proper diet and exercise doesn't work. And if I develop an incurable disease and God chooses not to heal me, He has a reason for that that may or may not have anything at all to do with my faith. But this handful would bring me down so low by claiming God definately wants us healed and I have to believe that I'm already healed in order to receive it.
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On a sad note I have seen too many people proclaim they are already healed only to die from the very thing they attempted to convince themselves and others that they were already healed while the very thing still ate away at their body until they went home to be with Jesus.
Then the audacity of some to say if they only had enough faith ....
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Part II
Let's take a different look at the concept of faith in regards to this subject. Could it be that when we have faith (an inner assurance) that God "is going" to do something that we can proclaim He will do it and trust Him for the outcome. I believe this is true. The problem is that most present the concept of faith as if we have activate our faith and speak the positive confession then God is bound to do the very thing we command. God never aligns with us ... we always must align with Him.
The difference is one knows the will of God on the subject and the other is attempting to direct God.
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What I looked as is that Abraham believed he "would be" the father of many nations. The way I keep hearing it preached is that we're supposed to claim we ARE the father of many nations now and it will come to pass later. That makes it a lie to me.
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The question to ask one's self is "why did Abraham believe that?" Was he telling God or did God tell Him and He believed God? Of course the question is somewhat rhetorical and the answer pretty obvious.
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True. But they also spin "by His stripes we are healed" as physical healing and that's where they claim God wants all of us healed. But I see it as saying He was wounded for our TRANSGRESSIONS, bruised for our INIQUITIES....and THOSE are what are being healed.
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The problem with that mentality is that we also have to remember that we have recorded in Scripture the beheading of James and the stoning of Stephen. I am sure that they did not feel physically healed as their flesh was being destroyed.
We also have Isaac who was so blind that he could not tell the difference between his son's and was fooled. This is Isaac of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob of whom God speaks that He is the God of ... Why didn't God heal Isaac if God always wants people healed physically in this life? What about the Lazarus, of the rich man and Lazarus? He was full of sores and eventually died, yet was greatly loved by God and brought to paradise.
Thus, did these 4 lack faith? Why didn't James trust God to come and get him out of jail like He did Peter? Why didn't God raise Stephen back to life like He did Paul? Two points. 1) God's will concerning each life was different. 2) Because God acts one way in a situation does not mean He will do it the same way next time.
If we want to get really technical all we have to do is look in a mirror if one is as old as I am or older. As I look in the mirror I recognize I am aging (rapidly) and that aging after a certain point is the precursor to death. Thus I am dying physically a little more every day. If am to be truly healed in the flesh this body of flesh that is dying has to be changed, and that day is coming. Otherwise any healing in the flesh today only delays the death I will one day experience in the flesh, lest the Lord comes back first.
Food for thought.
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Excellent word LT.
It is good to work with you my brother. :) Blessings.
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