All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
Trinity
I want to know more about the existences of this trinity and some fact to proof it from the scripture. Thanks
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Permalink Reply by Hellofull on
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The Jews were quick to apprehend the statement and reacted by preparing to stone Jesus for blasphemy because they misinterpreted what Jesus said "I and the Father are one." they thought that Jesus is trying to introduce Himself as God.
Just like you guys thought.
During the time of Christ and His Apostles, it was never an issue whether Christ is God or not. They are sure that Christ is a man, one reason is they see Him. The issue during that time is whether Jesus is the Christ or not.
Jews back then and until now are still waiting for the Messiah to come, not because they couldn't accept that Jesus is God but because they couldn't accept that He is the Christ.
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Would have expected you to say nothing less, but you are still wrong. You conclusion requires you to k=make a choice rather than rest on what the Scripture both says and portrays about Jesus.
LT
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John 20:28 Thomas was disposed to believe in Jesus by his personal attachment to him, as he demonstrated previously by his resolute adherence in impending danger (11:16). Now, having been challenged to make a personal test of Jesus' reality, Thomas expressed fullest faith in him. For a Jew to call another human associate "my Lord and my God" is incredible. The Jewish law was strictly monotheistic; so the deification of any man would be regarded as blasphemy (10:33). Thomas, in the light of the Resurrection, applied to Jesus two titles of deity. (NIVBC)
Thomas applied two titles to Jesus that Jesus did not refute in any way. Thus, He affirmed Thomas' comments.
LT
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ISA 9:6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. (NIV)
Speaks for itself.
LT
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GAD 578
Have you noticed the label of your video?
Monotheistic Trinity
Mono, meaning one.
Tri, meaning three.
A Three that is One or One is Three? That's even worse than 3 in 1 man.
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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hahaha you are loco man but i do love you man.
I think you want to save us from hell or trying to take us there with wrong doctrine hahaahhaha
I crack me self up.
ALL KIDDING ASIDE HELLOFULL - GOD BLESS YOU!!!
I AM NEVER TRYING TO OFFEND YOU MAN - KNOW THAT
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LT,
The fact that you spend your time going through all these study shows the intensity of your desire to be saved. Let us focus again on John 10:30, we will start from square one.
John 10:30
"I and My Father are one." (New King James Version)
Christ did not say, "I and My Father are one God." That one that says they are one God is not Christ but the status quo in this site.
How does the Bible prove that Christ and the Father are not one in nature? God is spirit... while Christ is a Man (John 8:40).
How does a spirit and a man differ in nature? for a spirit does not have flesh and bones (Luke (24:39).
How else does Christ and the Father differ? In power and honor:
"My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater and mightier than all else; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are One." (John 10:29-30 Amplified)
"...The Father is greater and mightier than I am." (John 14:28 Amplified)
How else does Christ and the Father differ? They differ in knowledge.
"For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things." (I John 3:20, NKJV) while Christ does not know the day and hour of the day of Judgment.
6"No one knows, however, when that day and hour will come--neither the angels in heaven nor the Son; the Father alone knows. (Matt. 24:36, Today's English Version)
What is the erroneous ramification if we are to accept that Christ and the Father are one God just because Christ said "I and My Father are one"?
"20"I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:" (John 17:20-22, NKJV)
The ones who will believe in Christ would also qualify to be God, because Christ prayed that they may be one just as Christ and the Father are one.
Therefore, if they are not one in nature, power and knowledge, what does Christ mean that He and the Father are one, that should happen also with the Christians?
"I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me." (John 17:23, New International Version).
It's clear that they are not one in nature, Christ is talking about unity.
A while ago you were asking me about versions of the Bible, you might want to consider reading John 10:30 in the following versions of the Bible:
"I and the Father are one heart and mind" (The Message)
"My Father and I are united" (Simple English Bible)
"And I am one with the Father." (Contemporary English Version)
"I and My Father are of one accord." (Lamsa Translation).
Considering the verses before John 10:30, Christ and the Father are one in taking care of the sheep.
You also have quoted from a certain concordance you haven't shown the title. Maybe you would also like to consider these:
Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, p. 446
The New Analytical Greek Lexicon, p. 121
The Preacher's Complete Homiletic Commentary, p. 306
Barne's Note on the New Testament, p. 293
Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine, p. 242)
These Greek Lexicographers and Bible Commentators prove that what is being referred to in John 10:30 as one is in purpose not in nature.
Now let's focus our study to the word "one" in John 10:30.
In Greek there are three words which may be translated to English as "one", But these three words differ according to Gender.
Consider the verse Ephesians 4:5, Let us look at this verse in Greek. In this verse we can see all the three Greek words of the English term "one."
"eis kurios, mia pistis, en baptisma" that is in English, "one Lord, one faith, one baptism."
You can check the Gender of each word, but for quick reference, let me write it down here:
eis [(h)eis] - masculine
mia - feminine
en [(h)en] - neuter
Now let us look at John 10:30 in Greek, to see which of these three Greek words for "one" was used in this verse.
"egow kai o pater en esmen"
Let us try to look it up in another Commentary (The Pilar New Testament Commentary: The Gospel According to John, p. 394). According to D.A. Carlson, if the term "eis" was used it would be possible to be understand the verse erroneously that Christ and the Father are one in nature. But the word used is "en" which shows that they are one in what they do.
Here's another commentaries, The New International Commentary on the New Testament, (p. 522) and the Systematic Theology: A Pentecostal Perspective, (p. 174).
They say that "en" was used to show that Christ and the Father are one in purpose.
Now enough of the Commentaries, let's again quote a verse that the term "en" was used to show being one in purpose.
"Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor." (I Corinthians 3:8, NKJV)
In this verse "en" was used to show that the one who plants and the one who waters are one in purpose. Apostle Paul and Apollos are not one in nature. As a minister they are one, but they are two different persons..
That is why when this verse was translated by the New International Version, this is what we could read:
"The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor." (I Corinthians 3:8).
If we are to ask the Bible, are the Father and Christ one in person?
"Yet even if I do judge, My judgment is true [My decision is right]; for I am not alone [in making it], but [there are two of Us] I and the Father, Who sent Me. In your [own] Law it is written that the testimony (evidence) of two persons is reliable and valid.(B) I am One [of the Two] bearing testimony concerning Myself; and My Father, Who sent Me, He also testifies about Me." (John 8:16-18 Amplified)
Someone implied in this thread that the 3 in 1 doctrine is from the early Christian Fathers. Let us ask the Catholic Church, how they stand regarding this.
"Supplementary to the last part of this statement, in a comment on the verse, 'I and my Father are one,' that this does not mean in respect to 'singularity of number'..."In number, the Father and the Son are two and not one and by the same token, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are three and not one." (The Philosophy of the Christian Fathers Vol. 1, p. 323)
LT, all of that will be useless if you close your eyes while reading.
Hellofull.
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LT,
The fact that you spend your time going through all these study shows the intensity of your desire to be saved. Let us focus again on John 10:30, we will start from square one.
Thank you for your concern, but I will tell you without question I am saved, born-again, cleansed by the blood of the Lamb (Rev. 1:5) and changed into the new creation, the old is gone and the new has come (2 Cor. 5:17), filled with the Spirit (Acts1:8; Eph. 5:18) and sanctified by Jesus (John 17:17; 1 Thes. 4:3). Your concerns for my salvation are unwarranted. I spend this time for two reasons. In hope of reaching you and seeing you saved and to refute your error to protect others from being deceived as you are.
John 10:30
"I and My Father are one." (New King James Version)
Christ did not say, "I and My Father are one God." That one that says they are one God is not Christ but the status quo in this site.
You are in error here again. That is exactly what He is saying and the Jews knew it. That is why they wanted to stone Him. They recognized that He claimed to be God, not just the Son of God. They did not believe Him to be God but understood Him to make that claim. They were not in error in their understanding of what He said. They were in error, like you, for missing the truth of what He said. If Jesus is not God then He is a lair. If He is a liar then He is disqualified to be the Lamb of God. If He is not the Lamb of God then we are still lost in our sins. But, He is God and those who come to Him as the living Savior Who is God will be saved. Those who think any less of Him than that He is God cannot be saved for they deny the testimony of God’s Word and the conviction of the Holy Spirit (Who is also God, the third part of the Godhead) are still lost. Thus I treat you as lost in need of salvation for you have been deluded by your mentors teaching and approach Scripture blinded by him and AS the Word says, blinded by the god of this age (2 Cor. 4:4).
How does the Bible prove that Christ and the Father are not one in nature? God is spirit... while Christ is a Man (John 8:40).
The Bible proves, but you miss it. There are three passages I will refer to for your study.
1) Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, without beginning or end (Rev. 1:8; 21:6).
2) In John 1:1-5 based on the original Greek we see the Father and the Son together from before the beginning, because He was already there. The Bible says that “In the beginning “was” the Word” not then began the Word. You may choose to use the New World Translation and their errors by applying preconceived ideas to change the verse, but in the Greek it is clear.
3) Philippians 2:6-7 clearly states that He is the very nature of God, not similar or less than, but the exact nature. (Hebrews 1:3 does not present a carbon copy, but the oneness of the Son and the Father). Verse 7 of Philippians 2 recognizes that He was the very nature of God, God Himself and that the eternal Jesus (God) took on the very nature of man. He clothed Himself with human flesh. In doing so He did not become less than He was. He is still God. In doing so He took on the fullness of man by putting His Spirit in human flesh. Are you spirit? Are you flesh? Is you spirit full spirit? Is your flesh full flesh? You are full spirit and full man. Only Jesus was full God and full man. Does not the Bible also teach that we have a soul (Heb. 4:12 differentiates between soul and spirit)? You are a tripart being, flesh, spirit and soul. God is triune, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
How does a spirit and a man differ in nature? for a spirit does not have flesh and bones (Luke (24:39).
God took on the very nature of man by clothing Himself with human flesh. How did God walk in the cool of the day with Adam in the garden? Do spirits walk? Do spirits make noise when they walk through a garden (Gen. 3:8)?
How else does Christ and the Father differ? In power and honor:
"My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater and mightier than all else; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are One." (John 10:29-30 Amplified)
"...The Father is greater and mightier than I am." (John 14:28 Amplified)
Philippians 2:7 states that Jesus emptied Himself in order to take on the very nature of man. That is to set aside the glory and be clothed in human flesh. He is not less God, but took on the flesh. By stating that He emptied Himself He teaches His eternal nature as He existed before His birth in human flesh. He took on the flesh to fulfill the Law and to die on the “cross” as the sacrificial Lamb that takes away the sins of the world. The subjecting part is clear in that He came in the flesh in order to redeem man (Heb 2:14-18).
How else does Christ and the Father differ? They differ in knowledge.
"For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things." (I John 3:20, NKJV) while Christ does not know the day and hour of the day of Judgment.
6"No one knows, however, when that day and hour will come--neither the angels in heaven nor the Son; the Father alone knows. (Matt. 24:36, Today's English Version)
As God, Jesus lived among men in the flesh. He set aside His glory, not His nature. The Bible also says that only God knows the heart of men (1 Kings 8:39) and we see that Jesus knew the hearts and thoughts of men (Rev. 2:23 and Mat. 9:4). Jesus also says that He came to do the Father’s will and does nothing on His own. This is the life of a Son subjected to the Father. The Son is God clothed in flesh.
What is the erroneous ramification if we are to accept that Christ and the Father are one God just because Christ said "I and My Father are one"?
"20"I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:" (John 17:20-22, NKJV)
We do become one with God because of our changed nature and His presence within us. As we receive the Holy Spirit after conversion we take on the nature of God living within us. We become new creations in Christ (New spirits now, 2 Cor. 5:17, and new bodies later, 1 Cor. 15). We partake of Jesus’ eternal life. We do not have eternal life of our own, but receive His life as our own when we become children of God, which is different than being called the Son of God. Jesus bestows on us His glory and one of the greatest parts of that is found in Col. 1:27, “Christ in you the hope of glory.” If we do not have Christ we are not saved. This is simple Theology.
The ones who will believe in Christ would also qualify to be God, because Christ prayed that they may be one just as Christ and the Father are one.
John 15 talks about the oneness that you speak of without calling us the Son of God. Yet, we will take on the very nature of Christ who is very nature God, because we are changed and it is God who lives in us. We are not God, but grafted into the very nature of God.
Therefore, if they are not one in nature, power and knowledge, what does Christ mean that He and the Father are one, that should happen also with the Christians?
"I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me." (John 17:23, New International Version).
It's clear that they are not one in nature, Christ is talking about unity.
We are being brought into alignment, unity, as we mature. Jesus is already in alignment, for He is one with God and is God. We battle the sinful flesh which wars against us. The flesh that will not be changed until the resurrection, but spiritually those who have been born-again have been changed spiritually and begin the process of maturing in Christ as the Holy Spirit lives in us.
A while ago you were asking me about versions of the Bible, you might want to consider reading John 10:30 in the following versions of the Bible:
"I and the Father are one heart and mind" (The Message)
"My Father and I are united" (Simple English Bible)
"And I am one with the Father." (Contemporary English Version)
"I and My Father are of one accord." (Lamsa Translation).
The Message is a paraphrase, The Simple English and CEV say the same thing that I have been saying and the last one is a choice of the translator. The NIV and KJV and many others are very clear, “I and my Father are one.” (KJV) Shall we choose 50 more versions seeking the one word here or there that satisfies our own preconceived ideas?
Considering the verses before John 10:30, Christ and the Father are one in taking care of the sheep.
You also have quoted from a certain concordance you haven't shown the title. Maybe you would also like to consider these:
Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, p. 446
The New Analytical Greek Lexicon, p. 121
The Preacher's Complete Homiletic Commentary, p. 306
Barne's Note on the New Testament, p. 293
Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine, p. 242)
These Greek Lexicographers and Bible Commentators prove that what is being referred to in John 10:30 as one is in purpose not in nature.
The context of John 10 does not prove your premise. He is both one in nature and in purpose. I repeat that in John 10:30 His statement was clearly understood as calling Himself God by the Jews. He did not refute it. When Thomas made His statement in John 20:28 Jesus did not refute it. THE NIVBC, Matthew Henry Commentary and Adam Clarke Commentary all come to the same conclusion that Jesus being viewed as God here.
Now let's focus our study to the word "one" in John 10:30.
In Greek there are three words which may be translated to English as "one", But these three words differ according to Gender.
Consider the verse Ephesians 4:5, Let us look at this verse in Greek. In this verse we can see all the three Greek words of the English term "one."
"eis kurios, mia pistis, en baptisma" that is in English, "one Lord, one faith, one baptism."
You can check the Gender of each word, but for quick reference, let me write it down here:
eis [(h)eis] - masculine
mia - feminine
en [(h)en] - neuter
Now let us look at John 10:30 in Greek, to see which of these three Greek words for "one" was used in this verse.
"egow kai o pater en esmen"
Let us try to look it up in another Commentary (The Pilar New Testament Commentary: The Gospel According to John, p. 394). According to D.A. Carlson, if the term "eis" was used it would be possible to be understand the verse erroneously that Christ and the Father are one in nature. But the word used is "en" which shows that they are one in what they do.
Here's another commentaries, The New International Commentary on the New Testament, (p. 522) and the Systematic Theology: A Pentecostal Perspective, (p. 174).
They say that "en" was used to show that Christ and the Father are one in purpose.
Now enough of the Commentaries, let's again quote a verse that the term "en" was used to show being one in purpose.
"Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor." (I Corinthians 3:8, NKJV)
In this verse "en" was used to show that the one who plants and the one who waters are one in purpose. Apostle Paul and Apollos are not one in nature. As a minister they are one, but they are two different persons..
One cannot understand the Scripture without understanding the context as well. In context this verse is clear that they believed that He was claiming to be God. If He had stated He was only one in purpose they would not have accused Him of blaspheme. For they themselves would have stated that they were one in purpose with God, but not God. Jesus Word here, its meaning and implication is not debatable. Put it in the context of chapter 10 and the whole of Scripture and you come up with Jesus is God the Son.
If we are to ask the Bible, are the Father and Christ one in person?
"Yet even if I do judge, My judgment is true [My decision is right]; for I am not alone [in making it], but [there are two of Us] I and the Father, Who sent Me. In your [own] Law it is written that the testimony (evidence) of two persons is reliable and valid.(B) I am One [of the Two] bearing testimony concerning Myself; and My Father, Who sent Me, He also testifies about Me." (John 8:16-18 Amplified)
This highlights the Trinity and the fulfillment of the Law given to man regarding testimony. Jesus operating as full God and full man.
Someone implied in this thread that the 3 in 1 doctrine is from the early Christian Fathers. Let us ask the Catholic Church, how they stand regarding this.
"Supplementary to the last part of this statement, in a comment on the verse, 'I and my Father are one,' that this does not mean in respect to 'singularity of number'..."In number, the Father and the Son are two and not one and by the same token, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are three and not one." (The Philosophy of the Christian Fathers Vol. 1, p. 323)
There were varied beliefs out there that one could find. That is the reason for the 325 council meeting. The council meeting in 325 did not create a belief, but affirmed the beliefs of the early church regarding the doctrine of the Trinity and in so established the creed to refute the error. It is not about the Catholic church here, but what did the Word of God teach and the apostles preach.
LT, all of that will be useless if you close your eyes while reading.
You fear my eyes are closed. Fear not, for I am sure of Whom I believe and trust Him fully for my salvation. He is the Lord Jesus, the Son of God, God in the flesh.
We are at a cross roads which shows one of us is not saved. You believe that I am blind and I am convinced that you are blind. If you have questions about the deity of Christ I will continue to dialogue, but if your goal is only to propagate the flawed teaching you present I am done.
LT
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LT,
Those are all your own interpretations of the verses of the Bible I quoted.
Yes I have quoted from some concordances and other books, not that my faith is based on those but make certain words and issues clearer.
Going back to John 10:30
Jesus said, "I and My Father are one"
But you understood it as "I and My Father are one God"
What's your basis in that?
Christ never claimed to be God. But rather introduced the Father as the only true God. (John 17:1, 3).
It was the Jews, and even you who were mistaken that Christ claimed that He is God when He says that "I and My Father are one".
And why would Jesus be a liar if He is not God. He never said He was. What He said was this:
"But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. (John 8:40 NKJV)
He told the Jews, He is a Man because they were mistaken that He was claiming to be God, just like you.
Jesus is a Man who has told you the truth.
Hellofull
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Hellofull,
At the risk of continuing this circular argument (debate) I will respond to this question and to your posting below.
The Jews in verse 33 state they are stoning Him because He claims to be God. That was how they in their culture and context of the day understood Him. They understood Him to claim He is God by that statement. Jesus never corrects, refutes or denies their assertion. The same is found in John 20:28. Jesus never corrects, refutes or denies Thomas' claim that He is Lord and God. A good Jew would run from such a statement if he we not actually God.
John 8:40 has to be carried on to verse 58. The context and timing here is that the people had just finished celebrating one of the festivals and that during this particular festival they would read the Book of Isaiah. God refers to Himself repetitively as "I AM." Thus, when Jesus proclaied that "Before Abraham was, I am" he again is making the claim of His deity which would be extremely fresh in their minds having just read the Book of Isaiah. Note their reaction. Verse 59, they picked up stones to kill Him. Jesus claim to be a man in verse 40 is accurate and His claim to be a God in verse 58 is also accurate, because He is both full God and full man. There is no contradiction or loss of meaning when we take the word in full context and compare Scripture with Scripture letting it be the judge.
LT
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LT,
You are trying to tell me that the Jews were right about their understanding that Christ claims to be God. Your proof is that Christ never corrects, refutes or denies their assertion. Let us quote their assertion then:
"The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God." (Juan 10:33, NKJV).
They accused Christ of blasphemy, because being a man He make Himself God. Blasphemy to them therefore is when a man claims to be God. You are wrong about Christ never corrected them.
"Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, "You are gods"'? If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? (John 10:34-36, NKJV, emphasis mine).
Christ answered them not by saying that He is God, clothed with flesh claiming to be God. But by asking them a rhetorical question, "do you say... You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'"?
Christ made it clear to them that what He claims to be is that, He is the Son of God and not God Himself.
In John 20:28, granting without accepting that Thomas was not corrected. You are trying to tell me Thomas was not mistaken because He was not corrected. It would imply that if Thomas was mistaken he should have been corrected by Christ.
Following your argument.
"But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. And He said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have." (Luke 24:36-39, NKJV, emphasis mine)
When Christ corrected the Apostles when they thought they saw a spirit. You have created an argument against your own belief. You said Christ is full God (God is spirit, Jn 4:24) and full man. Why then did Christ corrected the Apostles if they were correct that Christ is a spirit?
I'll do a separate post for John 8:58.
Hellofull.
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Permalink Reply by ScribeD on
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Helloful, you are so far in error that you cannot see the way back:
You said "Christ never claimed to be God."
However, Jesus not only claimed it many ways, he demonstrated it.
You have been shown that numerous times on this forum. Why do you persist in refusing to see it? You make semantical arguments trying to explain it away, but it is very clear - and has been abundantly demonstrated.
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