All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
Trinity
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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JN 10:25 Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."
JN 10:31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"
JN 10:33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
The Jews clearly understood what Jesus had said regarding Himself and were preparing to stone Him because He called Himself God.
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I am curious. Why do you repeat "Emphasis ours?" Are you a single person or a group of people speaking through one AAG ID?
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JN 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. (KJV)
Was Thomas mistaken, in error or do you believe that the Bible has been changed?
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Permalink Reply by Carla on
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Dear Hellofull,
I've taken the liberty of posting your response here regarding my question to you about Gen 1:26..I asked you .."Who is the 'our'... This was your reply to me:
Hellofull has sent you a message on All About GOD
I'm sorry for sending you this letter. There is no "reply to this" button in your question back there at the forums.
"Us" in Genesis 1:26
We know "us" is not limited to two. The whole Genesis did not mention about the Holy Spirit and Christ. Although there was a promise about Christ (Gen. 3:15; Gal. 3:19) but that all the more proves that Christ is still not there during that time. Why promise the coming of Christ if He is already there?
The "us" refers to the ones who are already there, but it doesn't mean that they are co-creators of God (Gen 1:27). Who are the ones who are already there? The Cherubins
"So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life." (Genesis 3:24 NKJV)
"O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, the One who dwells between the cherubim, You are God, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth." (Isa. 37:16 NKJV)
Hellofull...
I responded to you:
"Are you saying that the cherubim were co-creators with God?" I am looking forward to your response. Thank you for understanding that I would like to keep the conversation in the forum rather than by private message. It is best to keep all our conversations in the light...so that all bretheren may respond...knowing fully what has been said. -
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Permalink Reply by Hellofull on
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Hello David,
It's nice to see you here.
So far, I have not said anything of my own interpretation. I just quoted from the verses. I have used different versions of the Bible, not to twist the gospel but to make things clearer.
You said:
"You have an answered before the question has been given - because you like discussing this topic, as we all do here, but if you show me with scripture that I am wrong I WILL CHANGE AND LOVE YOU FOR HELPING ME OUT OF MY ERROR BUT NOT YOU FRIEND - NOT YOU HELLOFUL."
You have quoted Hebrews 1:5-8 from the New King James Version: Let me quote it again and let's focus our study there:
Hebrews 1:5-8 New King James Version
5For to which of the angels did He ever say: "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You"? And again: "I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son"?
6But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him."
7And of the angels He says: "Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire."
8But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You said:
"God the father calls Jesus God. No further proof needed."
I assume you are trying to tell me that Hebrews 1:5-8 is a proof that Christ is God.
Before we go on, I do hope we agree with these things:
1. The Holy Scriptures does not contradict each other.
2. The one who were commanded by God to write down His words are inspired by Him, thus they are far away from committing mistakes in writing His words.
3. However, it was the ones who translated the Bible who committed mistakes. One reason is that their work was influence by their belief. Translators themselves admitted that they can't do perfect translations for many reasons.(Read the Preface of the Bible, e.g. Preface of Living Bible)
4. But there is still a way for the pure God's words to reach us. It will be easy to identify if there are verses that are mistranslated because "the Holy Scriptures does not contradict each other.
5. And the Holy Spirit that is promised by God to His chosen people will reveal the truth, through the Messenger He will sent.
Why is Hebrews 1:8 of the New King James Version cannot be used to prove that Christ is God?
Because it is a mistranslation of the verse (Heb. 1:8), which was originally written in Greek.
If we are to accept that the NKJV translation of Hebrew 1:8 is correct it would imply that there are two Gods. A God who is introduced and a God who introduced the other. Well, it doesn't matter to you guys because you believe in a 3 in 1 God. So we go to the second erroneous ramification if we are to accept that this translation of Hebrews 1:8 is correct.
It will contradict the truth about the true God. The true God knows no other God besides Him.
"Do not fear, nor be afraid; Have I not told you from that time, and declared it? You are My witnesses. Is there a God besides Me? Indeed there is no other Rock; I know not one.'"
(Isa. 44:8, New King James Version, emphasis mine).
The Son mentioned in Hebrews 1:8 then couldn't be God, because this is what is written in the following verse:
"You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions." (Hebrews 1:9, New King James Version, emphasis mine)
The Son has a God. How could He be God then when if fact the true God does not know any other God (Isa. 44:8).
What are few of the correct translations of Hebrews 1:8 then? Here are some:
"he says of the Son, 'God is thy throne for ever and ever, they royal sceptre is the sceptre of equity." (James Moffatt Translation)
"But of the Son he says, 'God is your throne forever and ever! And a righteous scepter is the scepter of his kingdom." (Goodspeed)
"But of the Son he says, 'God is your throne forever and ever!..." (Complete Bible)
"But with reference to the Son: 'God is your throne forever, and/the/scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of uprighteousness." (New World Translation)
If we are to ask the one who wrote "Hebrews", how did he introduced Christ?
"But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood." (Heb. 7:24 King James Version, emphasis mine)
"Here is the High Priest we need. A Man who is holy, faultless, unstained, beyond the very reach of sin and lifted to the very Heavens." (Heb. 7:26, Philips Modern English, emphasis mine)
Therefore, what Hebrews 1:5-8 really teaches is that the throne of the Son is God and not the Son is God.
What else is the proof that the correct translation of Hebrews 1:8 are the one that says, "God is your throne"?
"Hebrews" is originally written in Greek so it would be a great help if we consult "The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures."
In Greek, the verse is written:
"pros de ton huion Ho thronos sou ho theos eis ton aiona tou aionos..." (emphasis mine)
Ho thronos sou ho theos in English is "the God is your throne."
We also have to take into consideration that Hebrews 1:8 is quoted from Psalm 45:6:
Because Psalms is originally written in Hebrew it would be of help if we consult the Jewish Publication Society of America.
"Thy throne given of God is for ever and ever; A scepter of equity is the scepter of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated wickedness; Therefore, God, thy, God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows." (Acc. to the Masoretic Text, emphasis mine).
Hellofull.
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Paula,
In the verses Matt. 4:6-8, it is not written that Christ is God. Christ did not also say "Thou shall not tempt me who is thy God." It's just your own interpretation that this verse teaches that Christ is God.
What is clearly written is "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God," Do not think beyond what is written Paula, that is what Apostle Paul teaches us in I Cor. 4:6.
Consider this verse: Exodus 17:2 and 7
2"Wherefore the people did chide with Moses, and said, Give us water that we may drink. And Moses said unto them, Why chide ye with me? wherefore do ye tempt the LORD?
7And he called the name of the place Massah, and Meribah, because of the chiding of the children of Israel, and because they tempted the LORD, saying, Is the LORD among us, or not?"
The Israelites chide with Moses, but what did Moses told them? "...wherefore do ye tempt the LORD?"
If we follow your way of thinking... your own interpretation... your own opinion... Moses would qualify to be God. So you should be careful in giving your own interpretation, Paula.
What else is the reason why you should not think beyond what is written? (Going back to Matt. 4 now)
What have satan done, that's why Jesus said "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God?"
Satan tempted God by using what is written and adding to it (you can read Matt. 4:5-7, for you to know how Satan did it)
What did Satan quoted but added something to it? Psalms 91:11-12
11For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways. 12They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone. (King James Version)
Nothing about "cast thyself down" is written, but Satan told Jesus to do that. (Matt. 4:6 King James Version).
Let us repeat what is written in Matthew 4:5-8
"5Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, 6And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 7Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. 8Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;" (King James Version)
Do not add your own interpretation to that Paula, it's tantamount to tempting God, because God forbids us to add or subtract from what is written:
Matthew 5:18-19 (The following chapter of what you quoted)
18For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (New King James Version)
Deuteronomy 12:32
32"Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it. (New King James Version, emphasis mine)
May God help you control your anger Paula.
Hellofull
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Permalink Reply by JB on
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What I perceive is, that you do not know, or understand the difference in Jesus, and Christ.
Christ is not the last name of Jesus, Christ is an epithet of Jesus, it was Jesus The Christ, The anointed of God. Jesus was the son of Man, Christ is the Son of God. We are children of God by virtue of Christ in us, John one KJV To as many as have received Him gave He power to become the Sons of God, even to those that believe on His Name.
God was in Christ Reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them. (paraphrased) Using CHRIST as an epithet for Jesus.
Lets look at Eph.1, (my bible wont come up, so I will quote it the best I can.) I think around Verse. 16, or 17, Qt. That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of Glory would give unto you the Spirit of wisdom, and revelation of the knowledge of Him, that the eyes of your understanding would be enlightened, that ye may know what is the hope of His calling, and what the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the exceeding greatness of His power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of His mighty power, which He wrought in Christ, (an epithet of Jesus) when He raised Him from the dead, and set Him at His own right hand in heavenly places. Far above all principality, and power, and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come, and hath put all things under His feet, and gave Him to head over all things to the Church, which is His body, the fullness of Him that filleth all in all. (emphasis mine)
Who is He talking about in John 1? In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men....14th. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory as of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth.
Who is He talking about here?
I found this pretty interesting, In Heb. 1: God at sundry times and in diverse manners, spake in times past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, who He has appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds. Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, upholding all things by the Word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high. Being made so much better than the angels, as He hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. Now go back to John 1: again, In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. God is speaking to us today through His Word, the Words of God, is Him speaking to us. (Not by the prophets) but by His Word, the same as Christ.
(Express image) Strong's Con. Cord. #5481 Khar-ak-tare, a graver (the tool or the person), i.e. by impl. engraving ([character] the figure stamped i.e. an exact copy or [fig.] representation) EXPRESS IMAGE
I just happened to remember, Mat.11:25, When Jesus said Qt. I thank thee oh Father Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and revealed them unto babes. Even so Father so it seems good in thy sight, ALL THINGS ARE DELIVERED UNTO ME OF MY FATHER, AND NO MAN KNOWETH THE SON BUT THE FATHER, NEITHER KNOWETH ANY MAN THE FATHER SAVE THE SON, AND TO WHOMSOEVER THE SON WILL REVEAL HIM....
JB
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Permalink Reply by Tammy on
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I and the Father are one.” John 10:30
“Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.” Matt 1:23
For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Is 9:6“You are My witnesses,” says the Lord,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me. Is 43:10Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
And without controversy great is the [a]mystery of godliness:
God[b] was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory. 1 Ti 3:16
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Permalink Reply by Gayla on
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Great explanation Carla...
A very simple way that I like to think of this is kinda like us, we are a spirit, we have a soul and we live in a body.
Three in one... just like our Papa God :)
When our time is up, our spirit and soul go back to God, from which it came,( If we have been redeemed ) and our body goes back to dust.
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Permalink Reply by ScribeD on
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Ajala, the term "Trinity" is a term used to define the nature of God as He has revealed himself. As you read through the entire Bible, Old and New Testaments, you will find that God refers to himself in ways that line up with this concept. It was Christ, however, who gave us the fullest revelation on the matter - which He commissioned his Apostles to teach us.
Throughout the Old Testament there are references to God as being the Father. There are also many references to God being a Holy Spirit. It is with the advent of Jesus, however, that we see God in His fullest self declaration.
Some excellent places to see Jesus revealing this are:
Luke 20:41-44 (Jesus challenges the Pharisees that David's statement calling his Messianic descendant "Lord" is a contradiction of the order of descension AND it reveals that Yahway "LORD" is speaking to Messiah "Lord" about placing him as ruler over the entire earth. This reveals that Messiah is not merely human, but of a higher order than humanity AND that Yahweh God addresses him as Lord. This makes him of equal status, while subordinated relationship.)
Also, in Jesus' baptism, in Luke 3:21-22 (we see Jesus baptized, the Holy Spirit descend upon him and the Father speaks a blessing over him).
Finally, in Hebrews Chapters 1 and 2, we see the author clearly shows that God the Father has required Angels to worship Christ. Only God himself is worthy of worship. If Christ were not God, then this would be blasphemy.
Also, Jesus shows in the Gospel of John, chapters 14 through 17 that He has the authority to send the Holy Spirit. Only God Himself has the authority to direct the Holy Spirit. ("When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me..." John 15:26)
In all of these passages, we see that there is a relationship of an equality in nature - that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are "God". Yet, there is a subordinated role for each "person" of the Godhead. The Father plans, leads and guides; the Father blesses and charges. The Son obeys and fulfills the will of the Father; the Son reveals the plan of the Father. The Holy Spirit obeys the Son and is responsible for glorifying the Son and guiding us to glorify him.
There is much more that could be said about how Jesus and the Apostles revealed the nature of God to be "Triune" or "Trinity". However, you must search the scriptures yourself to see that these things are so.
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