All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
TO SPRINKLE OR IMMERSE ?
A problem I come across, particularly in Infant Sprinkling, is that most people use the term "The Baptism of babies." when in fact we should be saying: "Sprinkling a Baby"
Some may argue: "What difference does it make?
Well as we all know, how wrong terminology can create confusion.
The only church I know of, that baptizes (immerses) babies, are the Greek Churches.
They do this to follow a distinct command:
<b><i>"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, <b>baptizing</b> them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Mat 28:19</i></b>
Who knows better than the Greek when he reads "<i><b>Baptizo</b></i>". There is no doubt in their minds what they have to do. They immerse their babies.
Whether immersing babies as well as adults is correct? That is another discussion - We will leave that for another day.
It is a pity that the Translators of the New Testament when translating the term <b>"Baptizo"</b>did not use the correct term "Immerse" as written in the Greek.
I believe, that by the time manuscripts were gathered in order to have them all in one book in order to translate them from the Koine Greek into English; People had already started Sprinkling their babies.
The reason why, was that families became concerned as to what happened to their babies that had died and had not been Baptised (Immersed)? The practice was then born, and Babies were possibly at first immersed and then for convenience or to ease a mother's fears of her baby drowning, they started to Sprinkle.
This all took place before these manuscripts were translated into English.
The Translators did not want to get into heavy theological arguments over the correct terminology regarding the term "Baptizo", so rather than correctly translate the word to "Immerse" they "Anglicized" the word to "Baptism"
Hence today we have millions of people, Christians and Non Christians Going against God's Word
Sprinkling their babies, which God never instructed them to do.
This change has broken down the true ramifications of Immersion and gone against the Commandment God gave us and that is to Immerse Believers as a sign of Being buried with Christ and raising up out of the watery grave to a new life.. Other than this Baptism (Immersion) has no hidden "extras" that God will bestow on people. It simply shows obedience to God's instruction which was given to all who believed.
Amongst all Baptists and many other denominations, this is known and called "Believers Baptism" because it requires Believers to understand and accept what they are doing and what they have personally committed themselves to. Babies are unable to make this commitment and parents can't do it for them.
In Addittion:
Should one wish to take a baby to the Church font and Sprinkle the child, or get into a discussion on the subject, they hjave every right to do so. But unless the right terms are used on the subject; namely baptize or Sprinkle, the observer or reader becomes confused. Simply because both parties are giving different arguments on Baptism,and both continually use the same word: "Baptism". Little wonder there is so much confusion on this subject.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Yael Levi-Bénédict on
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Hi Michelle,
Your statement "Baptism is not a requirement to make it to Heaven" is in contradiction with Scriptures>
"And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you ... 1 Peter 3,21Before you feel that you have to quote a whole set of scriptures on salvation through faith, etc...Please note that he did NOT say baptism ALONE saves you, but Baptism NOW saves you.
Effectively, your are saying that one can deliberately choose to obey the Lord's command to repent and BE baptized, and thus decide what part of the Gospels one will comply with or not and be saved regardless of being disobedient! This is some Serious error, I am afraid.
Pax Domini
Yael
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Permalink Reply by Ron Payne on
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Hi Sharon,
Michelle says it so well that I feel it is important to repeat it.
I quote Michelle "Baptism is not a requirement to make it to Heaven. Baptism is a public declaration of one's faith. It is an act shown of obedience to follow Christ. There is no scripture reference to imply that baptism is necessary to make it to Heaven."
Obedience to the word of God is important.
As children we are obedient to the instructions given to us by our parents. By our obedience we in fact, bless our parents. Our parents in return bless us and show their appreciation by meeting all our needs and comforts.
Our need in this life is to attain the very first gift from God which is the "New Birth". This can only be attained by obedience to the Word of God.
Similar to our parents who warn us of the dangers in life, we have to be obedient to receive their love and gifts.
God is no different to our parents, First we are obedient to His warning: "For the wages of sin is death!" Because of our obedience to the warning, it allows us to accept God's gift. "but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Love is a two way street. Through our love and obedience to Him, Christians have no idea of the things that God has laid up in store for us. But it must be love that drives us to be obedient in all that God asks (Commands) of us. Not the gifts.
Baptism (Immersion) is a command to show the world where our allegiance lies.
This should be the very next step after conversion. Namely, our obedience to God and to show to the world where our allegiance lies.
Paul explains why we need to be immersed "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." Rom 6:4
Sadly all the confusion created by anglicising the word "Baptizo" instead of it's real meaning "Immerse" we find ourselves listening to our elders, priests and pastors. This then leads to some being sprinkled and others immersed. Will obedience to the wrong form be held against you by God? No!
The early translators will have to explain why they changed Baptizo to Baptise, therby creating confusion. (Elsewhere in this blog I give the reasons for this change)
This then is where obedience to another command from God comes in: "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." 2Tim 2:15. While this is a command, it will be written in your heart if you have been born again. No one will need to tell you to study; it will be a natural desire and yearning to know what God your Father has to say to you.
The study of God's word will enlighten you as to what God expects of you. Soon you will come to know that, you have missed out on displaying to the world that you have been buried with Christ and raised to a new life in Christ in Baptism (Immersion).
With this enlightenment that you receive, you now have a decision to make: "Will I be obedient to God's instruction to be immersed, or will I forego and conclude that the Sprinkling I received as a baby was sufficient?"
The choice will be yours and should you reject it, God will not reject you, but having been enlightened by the Spirit of God, it will be considered disobedience to God's command in His Word. The words: "Well done my good and faithful servant" in the case of being obedient to being baptised (Immersed, buried with Christ) will not be received.
Am I one, who only seeks God's rewards? "No!" But I am trying to receive as many instances of "Well done, my good and faithful servant" as I can.
This then is the reason for saying that being disobedient will lose rewards.
All of the above also applies to Helping the sick, caring for the elderly etc; etc;
But unless you are born again, all that labour while very commendable and gain world recognition and applause, it will not gain anyone salvation or rewards from God.
Sharon, may the Lord Bless you abundantly, as you seek His face and favour.
Ron. -
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Permalink Reply by Sharon Theresa Theil on
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I quote Michelle "Baptism is not a requirement to make it to Heaven. Baptism is a public declaration of one's faith. It is an act shown of obedience to follow Christ. There is no scripture reference to imply that baptism is necessary to make it to Heaven."
Exactly.
Baptism (Immersion) is a command to show the world where our allegiance lies.
This should be the very next step after conversion. Namely, our obedience to God and to show to the world where our allegiance lies.
We are talking about infants. At least I am.
This then leads to some being sprinkled and others immersed. Will obedience to the wrong form be held against you by God? No!
So, in fact it really doesn't make any difference.
The study of God's word will enlighten you as to what God expects of you. Soon you will come to know that, you have missed out on displaying to the world that you have been buried with Christ and raised to a new life in Christ in Baptism (Immersion).
With this enlightenment that you receive, you now have a decision to make: "Will I be obedient to God's instruction to be immersed, or will I forego and conclude that the Sprinkling I received as a baby was sufficient?"
God does not instruct us to be immersed. If He did then 'obedience to the wrong form Would be held against us by God. You yourself state that God does not hold obedience to the wrong form against us' therefore there is no command by God that Baptism must take an exact form ie; must be immersion.
But unless you are born again, all that labour while very commendable and gain world recognition and applause, it will not gain anyone salvation or rewards from God.
Must a person be immersed in order to be 'born again'? Must a person be immersed in order to 'gain salvation'?
Sharon -
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Hi Sharon,
I cannot understand your continual question:
"Must a person be immersed in order to be 'born again'? Must a person be immersed in order to 'gain salvation'?"
This has been answered clearly in just about every reply. So once more here is the reply, not only from me but others as well.
The answer is a clear NO!
Our discussion has also emphasised our Obedience to God's commands.
The definition of the word "Command" is as follows:
"A command is an authorative order, it is a formal order and an instruction that commands us to obey, so that it be done."
Therefore depending on who gives the order, it is either obeyed or disobeyed.
Jesus ordered us to paticpate with one another at the table in the taking of bread and wine, which represents his Body and Blood.
We do this regularly. Should one particpate in it or not, does not save one, although Paul does add: "For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep." 1Cor 11:29-30.
Nevertheless we are obedient to His Command, because it comes from God.
The question then is: "Similar to baptism that does not save us, may I also reject this order to particpate in Communion as well, just as I may reject the order to be baptised? Because neither are given as a means whereby we may be saved?
Another order given by Jesus: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: MAt 28:19-20
Had the disciples ignored this command and said: "Well baptism does not save you, So it matters not whether we preach it or not."
This would have been a direct rejection of Jesus Christ's commands.
Should we be ignorant of the truth, I believe God will forgive us.
But once He has cleared the mist and we still insist that we do not have to be obedient, simply because it does not save us, then I believe we are experiencing what Eve experienced in the garden. Satan questioned her and added a lie, by giving her a reason not to be obedient to God's command. She not only disobeyed God's command, but brought Adam into condemnation as well.
Thank you for your particpation in this discussion. As for me, I have once again realised the importance in my life to follow the will of God.
In fact whilst writing my comments, I have had to turn to God and ask Him for forgiveness. Where in many of the promptings of the Holy Spirit I have been disobedient.
The Lord Bless us all.
Ron -
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Ron,
Well done! God Bless you!
Saint Peter took the trouble to tell us how Baptism was prefigured in the Old Testament comparing it to the great flood... The water that washed the earth from sin and Saved God's elect.
One CANNOT read the Gospels without the backdrop of the OLD Testament. Fact!
I am so glad for my jewish background when it comes to this!
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Permalink Reply by Michael Vernon McEntire on
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Michael, I'm glad that you understand that there are Christians who disagree with sacramentalism. I hope that you do agree that those who do not believe in sacramentalism ARE Christians indeed. I actually study Roman Catholicism every day, so I understand your point of view and I think that you are a true Christian if you believe that it is JESUS who saves you, and not your church. I believe that graces can be transmitted through objects (things like water and oil and ashes), as well as by words; but I strongly believe, and as an evangelical Christian I must firmly hold, that the Grace of Salvation can only be obtained, and NEED ONLY be obtained, through faith in the Word of God. I also feel obliged to point out that the children mentioned in the Scriptures you cited were not necessarily babies, and that, in a similar vein, your proposed analogous link between circumcision and baptism is not necessarily valid. I know that even some protestants, i.e. Presbyterians, have used that analogy to justify infant baptism, but I have found absolutely no convincing scriptural (Apostolic) link between cicumcision and baptism. Nor do I think that there are any particular covenants that apply to baptized infants except the covenant that we as parents make to raise the children in the fear and admonition of the LORD (to teach them the Gospel as soon as they are able to understand it).
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Very interesting...
How is it that you "study" Catholicism? - Roman catholics is just how they call the part of the Universal Church lead by the Roman Pontif , however, Catholicism both in the East and West are essentially one and the same.
What documents do you read when you study Catholicism? Do you read official Catholic theologians or random internet websites? Have you had a chance to read official documents such as Humanae Vitae or any Apostolic Letters, The Dogmatic Constituition, Dei Verbum, Lumen Gentium... Etc?
I'd be very interested in discussing them with you, especially because your comment above seem to be very off the mark when it comes to understanding what you call "Sacramental" - that term is alien to real Catholics and sounds a bit derrogative, to be honest...
BTW, in your study of Catholicism did you learn that Church teaches that Salvation is from Grace and not "works" like some evangelicals love to say?
In this respect, it is funny how so many well meaning people can get so mixed up with the concept of works of the law - as explained by st Paul - and what Catholics call good works, or works of mercy and spiritual works, such as scripture reading, etc.... But that is another story...lol
Pax Domini,
Y
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MHO is that baptism, whether by sprinkling or immersion, should be done with the *right* heart. What is in the heart of the person being baptised? Do they know it is an outward show of what has happened in their hearts? Do they understand that FIRST they confess Christ as Savior and then are baptized or do they think that baptism saves them?
I believe we should be immersed rather than sprinkled, but I won't discredit a person who has been sprinkled. The important thing is that we have the right heart for the ceremony.
Most of what I see is a dedication of a child to God not a baptism. Children don't require baptism but there is nothing wrong and everything right about dedicating a child to God and then doing our part to raise him/her in the proper manner that we have promised in the dedication. The problem lies in the parent not following through on the dedication; bringing up the child in the way he/she should go. -
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Baptism is no "dedication". It is the New Circumcision. Just like infants of 8 days became part of God's people, we Christians become part of his family, by adoption through the waters of baptism.
Just like the Jewish parents of the Old Covenant brought their infants before God, who would accept the child because of the faith of the parents, God accept baptized infants because of the faith of the parents.
Just like Jews profess their faith at 12 with the Bar mitzvah, Traditional Christians ( cathollics, orthodox, easter catholic,etc) profess their faith later on around 12 yr, by the Chrism. This is when they believe and fully receive the gifts of the spirit. It is like a personal Pentecost.
Baptism makes us Children of God and Saves us. Even Luther said so:
Thus we must regard Baptism and make it profitable to ourselves, that when our sins and conscience oppress us, we strengthen ourselves and take comfort and say: Nevertheless I am baptized; but if I am baptized, it is promised me that I shall be saved and have eternal life, both in soul and body. For that is the reason why these two things are done in Baptism namely, that the body, which can apprehend nothing but the water, is sprinkled, and, in addition, the word is spoken for the soul to apprehend. Now, since both, the water and the Word, are one Baptism, therefore body and soul must be saved and live forever: the soul through the Word which it believes, but the body because it is united with the soul and also apprehends Baptism as it is able to apprehend it. We have, therefore, no greater jewel in body and soul, for by it we are made holy and are saved, which no other kind of life, no work upon earth, can attain.
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Show from the Word of God where it teaches that baptism is the new circumcision. Not going to happen ...
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LT,
If we must, here it goesbr/>
11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh[a] was put off when you were circumcised by[b] Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you[c] alivewith Christ. He forgave us all our sins,
Colossians, 2,11-13
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Nice try, but that does not say that the baptism is the circumcision. It says that you were circumcised by Christ not the water baptism. The focus is on faith.
Rom 2:29 No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.
Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
You will need to try harder.
Lord Bless,
LT -
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