Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by eric cox on April 16, 2010 at 8:02am

brother ron,
with the understanding of the Greek word i agree. to immerse is the right understanding of theis word. my only question is in the command of God. since when in the history of the people of God, have we ever been 'command' observers? i mean, the Scriptures proves that God's children are continuously 'breaking' his commands. Therefore, instead of preaching and trying so hard to place these commands in front of us like carrots in front of rabbits- i would have to come to the conclusion that God's grace will wash these failings of His children once again. I do not believe that the lack of understanding the method in which God commanded his children to be 'baptized' into the Lord Jesus- would be greater than grace (meaning that God's grace is exactly the forgiveness of our ignorance). Many understand baptism this way, others another, and still others a third. Paul seems to be dealing with the same problem in Corinth; and his solution: 'i am glad i have not baptized any of you (except for a few), fore God did not send me to baptize but to prTach the gospel message.'
The mode or 'method' of baptism has split the body just as the belief in the resurrection and angels split the jewish council at the time of Jesus. We all know in part, but the part we know seems to be what we place as the 'method' in which God favors. Jesus gives us 2 'commands' - Love God and Love people, 'for they will know that you are my disciples by how you love one another'. also we may all fight for 'how to be baptized correctly' but how many are fighting for (Luke 14:33) where Jesus says, 'anyone of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple.'
in conclusion:
the author of Hebrews writes, "about this we have much tosay, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. for though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. you need milk, not solid food, for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. but solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil. therefore let us leave the elemntary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits."
i write to encourage us to hear God's wisdom regarding quarreling about words. if we continue to pursue being 'correct' about the washing techniques- we will continue to devour one another like we have throughout the history of Life.
Let us place our faith into 'God's Grace' and let Him seperate the sheep from the goats and let us press into this Love that surpasses knowledge- for perfect love drives out all fear. Man can sow and water, but it is God who grows...so let us give the growing back to God and focus on what He has truly called of His children: to 'relish in the fact that our names are written in the Book of Life' this Book which is Christ. the same Christ that cries from His death, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do!"
In His Grace and Mercy,
your brother in Chist
eric

Permalink Reply by Ron Payne on April 16, 2010 at 2:10pm

Hi Eric,

Sound words you have given to us and I agree with you.
Yes there has to be a place for Grace. But there also has to be a place for each and every doctrine of the Bible.
When counselling an unbeliever, One would not and should not speak of anything except the doctrine of Salvation and God's grace. The rest of scripture's instruction will and must follow later.

But when a person becomes a Believer and a student, do we have the authority to tell him which doctrines are important or that there are some that do not really need to be discussed, especially while he is discussing/teaching them?

Also which of us can say that while Jesus instructed us to: "Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Mat 28:19....... that you don't really have to be baptised because God will forgive (wash) you anyway?

No my brother we have a commandment from Jesus himself and if there be any confusion as to how we carry that commandment out, then surely it is up to us to find out what is expected of us to do the will of God.

There are some things that can be done in different ways, but baptism is not one of them. There is only one mode and that is by immersion. If one should feel that it is not so important or that it is too much trouble to find out which is correct then two instructions would have been broken.

1. The lord's command to be baptized. Mat 28:19

2. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2Tim 2:15

Failing which we might find ourselves wondering why we are losing out on blessings when we down play any of God's instructions; "And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 1 Jhn 3:22

Finally AAG is the place where we hope to learn from each other.

AAG is a great place to be Eric, hope to see and hear more from you.
Ron

Permalink Reply by eric cox on April 17, 2010 at 7:41am

Brother Ron,
i agree withyou on your understanding of Jesus' commands to go therefor and baptize the nations.
my concern is our understanding on the method still.
my only question at this time is the disobediece of 'mother teresa'. surely since she and many others that were raised in the catholic faith and also in the lutheran church (just to name a few churches that practice and teach not only by immersion) have broken the command of God.
these examples reveal that God's call to baptism may be interpreted by some this way and others another.
how do we, expel such great leaders in God's eternal kingdom as being disobedient to God's commands, especially in : "There are some things that can be done in different ways, but baptism is not one of them. There is only one mode and that is by immersion."

thanks for conversing with me,
greatly appreciated,
In Him,
eric

Permalink Reply by Ron Payne on April 17, 2010 at 12:41pm

Hi my brother Eric,
Thank you for coming back to me.
I once knew of a minister who only sprinkled babies. Some time later two of his members went and got baptised by immersion. The next Sunday in Church he said: "I believe two of our members have recently been baptised by Immersion, will they please stand up." They stood up and one of them started to explain why they had been baptised. The minister immediately stopped him by shouting at him: I don't care for your excuses I believe what this book and only what this book says." He was pointing to the Constitution of their church. He had placed the Church's Constitution above that of the Bible.

Now the question to ask Eric, is was he right? He had taken the Bible, which is the inspired word of God and placed it in second place to the rules and regulations that mere men had written....

Either the Bible is the inspired word of God and is to be obeyed and practiced or it is not. It cannot be half right and half wrong. We cannot take the verses we like in the Bible and say: "I will follow these, the others are not that important."

Those who wish to go against God's word and do what they have been taught to believe, without going to the Bible prayerfully to discover the truth, will have to answer to God.

I do believe that getting their Baptism and sprinkling all mixed up is not going to keep them out of Heaven if they have been "Born again". But I also believe that their reward for not being faithful servants to the instructions of God himself will be less, than had they proved themselves faithful to the Bible.

Sadly there are millions listening to the doctrines of men. "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." Mat 15:9

I also believe that there are those who do find it difficult to understand the message of the Bible and God will deal Justly with them.

Ron

Permalink Reply by eric cox on April 18, 2010 at 5:39am

thanks Ron,
i will sit on this for awhile. i will get back with some more questions i am sure.
your insights are appreciated.
(oh btw. i have been baptized and by immersion, just so you know i am not trying to defend my personal position).
in Him,
eric

Permalink Reply by Ron Payne on April 18, 2010 at 6:46am

OK Eric,
I will watch out for you.
Eric is a good name, it was my Father's name too.
Blessings
Ron.

Permalink Reply by eric cox on April 21, 2010 at 10:06am

Brother Ron,
i have finished my research and believe God has revealed some revelations concerning our dialogue. Ron, i believe if you are a man of your word, which through our communication you seem to be, you will not be quick to respond to this but take the wisdom which you yourself have placed before the both of us and many others. I don't mind writing back and forth but i need to know that you, like me, are digging with all we have; and not relying on what we know but searching for what we do not. Being open to God's revelation in all things- and not just protecting the beliefs that we like because of what has changed us (or because we may have found a rational explanation through an outside source other than the Scriptures themselves, or God's visions or dreams)...and that we may have an allegiance with Christ and not our denominational heritage (which is as shallow as that of the Scribes and teachers of the Law). We all need a continuing in the 'cutting of the heart' and a 'burning of our treasure map'.

with this said, please read the following many times before responding with haste. i have and will continue to be diligent in: my knowing this Christ that surpasses all understanding- for we only know in part except for 2 things: Christ's crucifixion and His resurrection.
your brother,
eric

Permalink Reply by eric cox on April 21, 2010 at 10:10am

Brother ron,
you say,
(1) "We cannot take the verses we like in the Bible and say: "I will follow these, the others are not that important."
(2) “Those who wish to go against God's word and do what they have been taught to believe, without going to the Bible prayerfully to discover the truth, will have to answer to God.”
~so i will ask some questions and make some challenges (reminding both of us of the (2) statements made above which was in your last response).
Jesus was talking to his disciples when he gave the "great commission"~ 'go baptize the nations in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.' knowing that this is a command of Jesus (SPEAKING TO HIS DISCIPLES) i will now bring to light some other 'Jesus commands.' (that he first demands before a person even qualifies to be able to 'go and baptize'). because in my understanding- how can one go baptize unless he is a 'disciple of Christ' and also if one is 'baptized' he should also be willing to also be a disciple of Christ. Since this being the case, let us go to Jesus' words that he "commands" from a person for the 'disciple qualifiers'. (because we must remember: (1) "We cannot take the verses we like in the Bible and say: "I will follow these, the others are not that important.").
Some passages (just a quick glance) which are spoken by Jesus concerning who can/cannot be his disciple (or enter into His Kingdom):
Matt 5:20; 6:24; 10:37; 16:24—25 ; 18:3—4 ; 19:21
Mark 10:15; 10:21
Luke 6:20; 12:20—21; 12:32—34; 14:33; 18:25
John 3:3; 13:34—35
~I guess after looking at these passages, I wonder are we fulfilling/or teaching {like you say} the passages we choose to look at. I mean I am not sure if those who preach/teach/insist on Acts 2:38 also teach Luke 14:33? I mean we sure know how to get them under water but we sometimes forget that we ourselves have not even met the requirements that Jesus lays out for us all.
Also my question regarding your wisdom : “Amongst all Baptists and many other denominations, this is known and called "Believers Baptism" because it requires Believers to understand and accept what they are doing and what they have personally committed themselves to. Babies are unable to make this commitment and parents can't do it for them.”
I wondered if Jesus speaks on this matter?
Matt 19:13—15
I can also not notice that ever since began this creation. His people were always adopted in on the 8 day of their lives (the men anyway). These were children that could not make a commitment; but yet their parents ‘did it for them’. God honored the children because of His relationship to the parents. This understanding comes back up in Acts w/ the jailer: Acts 16:33. And also Acts 2:38 speaks of repentance and baptism but we hardly recognize Acts 2:39 and I am not sure why but it completes the understanding (for some reason I believe we bypass this because of the word children). Also I ask a question regarding 1Cor. 7:14? I am just not sure bout this verse?
A few other passages I would like to bring up quickly are:
Numbers 19:18—20
Ezekiel 36:24—32 (please do not miss verse 25)
Isaiah 52:13—15 (please do not miss verse 15)
~the question I see is the method in which we demand for ‘true interpreters’. Although our understanding is usually more clearer than another’s understanding; the Bible also encourages: “Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves.”Rm. 14:22.
Therefore, I am just hoping that we are not out-stepping God’s call on our lives. For he calls us to Love God and Love people. Baptism (although important, Paul was glad he did not baptize any of his people, except for few…”for Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.” 1Cor. 14—17.
Brother Ron, I have many more questions but I am hoping that you do not just fly through this, but instead read thoroughly (for your words: “Those who wish to go against God's word and do what they have been taught to believe, without going to the Bible prayerfully to discover the truth, will have to answer to God.”) Holding on to what has been passed down by denomination traditions or educated theologians or hermeneutic geniuses or qualified commentators- these may in themselves be intended for truth but may themselves fall short of God’s Truth. Let us all beware of speaking for God. For, "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and HE will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. HEwill put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. ~matt 25:31—33.
(also another quick thought: about believer’s baptism. If we need to make a ‘rational decision’ for our salvation…what will/is done with those which are “mentally retarded”? For these people have no ability to be rational (as we would define rational). Just a thought?)

May God bless us with the knowledge of Him,
In His Grace and Love,
eric

Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on April 23, 2010 at 5:14am

Let the Children Come to Me
13 Then children were brought to him that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples rebuked the people, 14 but Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.” 15 And he laid his hands on them and went away.

The Holy Bible : English Standard Version. Wheaton : Standard Bible Society, 2001, S. Mt 19:13-15
“Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5 “Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me,
The Holy Bible : English Standard Version. Wheaton : Standard Bible Society, 2001, S. Mt 18:3-5

Both of the above mention verses tell me that a child has a very special place in Jesus's heart and that they, as children, are assured of heaven.

It is only as they grow older that sin rears it's ugly head and the need for repentance (and Baptism) becomes necessary.

There was a time in history that humans weren't under sin as the law hadn't yet been given.

Also, each and every one of us who studies the Bible and a believer in Christ is a disciple of His. Disciple means student. As a disciple (student) we should be able to follow his directives. the Bible tells us that the student will never be greater than the Master.

So if Christ gave us a directive to submerse a person instead of sprinkle them, we should be able to follow that directive. Baptize, by the very meaning of the word means to immerse or dip. The very idea of the word means to go under the water. Spiritually, it means to bury. When we are immersed we are declaring that we are dead to the sinful life and alive in Christ.

Children don't need this assurance at a young age. They are assured of a home with heaven, until the time when they also need salvation through the Lord.

Because none of us are guarenteed tomorrow, the children also have no promise of tomorrow, so there is no need to baptise them, whether by sprinkling or immersion.

Hope this helps.

Permalink Reply by eric cox on April 23, 2010 at 6:03pm

Thanks Rita,

i understand this...but this understanding of the 'entering into God's Kingdom' does not match the way God designed His Kingdom from the start.

Foreigners (those) that have decided to enter this 'Kingdom' have always been able to enter through a physical act (circumcision) and like the Ethiopian being baptized, and also the jailer- they were "converts" or "foreigners"~ so yes conversion would reflect this practice. But we have no account in the Scriptures of a 'child' who grew up in a 'Christian home' that was called to be 'baptized' back into the faith that he was raised in. Nor is there any account of a circumcised child of God growing up and getting 'correctly' circumcised because now he really understands the 'salvation process'. Even writing this makes me stronger in this ( i mean- it is God who adopts His family) and ever since the beginning of Scripture He was dedicated to His children (the ones who were 'initiated' on the 8th day). But He also allowed 'converts' to enter into the Kingdom (these would be the ones today who were not raised in a 'Godly home').

What about the prodigal? The father did not say, 'well you strayed away, now you must be once again 'buried' so that you can re-enter our kingdom.'

See, although the arguments for all these 'entrances into God's Kingdom' sound 'rational' and can be backed up by 'Greek interpretations'- this does not mean that they support our 'separating the real followers from the rebellious ones'.

Immersion, sprinkling, pouring? in all reality, if this confusion is solved by defining the word baptize by using a Greek concordance, dictionary, or any other determining factor- then why did not the 'translators' of the modern Bibles not use the word: immersion instead of baptize? I mean we must serve a confusing God and a small one- because if we have a God who would confuse us with definition of words and refuse us because of our lack of understanding of these 'essential' terms then our God does not match the rest of the Book in which we all claim Him to have 'inspired'. We are actually pledging our allegiance to 'interpreters, commentators, instructors, translators, educated Masters of Divinity...'

Our children are as the children in all of the Scriptures- Loved by God because when we were adopted by Him on the cross they were too. and if we raise them that the Lord loves them and that they are in His family; but then when they get to the 'age of accountability' (which cannot be found in Scriptures) we tell them: get out of the family and decide whether you want to come back in? Once you are a child, you remain a child. Even though the Israelites did not return their hearts to God, He still died for them and He did not ask them if this was okay. You see, God seems to do what He wants whether we approve of it or not.(Romans 9:14-21). And one day He will come and separated the sheep from the goats (matt 25: 31-46) and this separation has nothing to do with the mode of baptism (Jesus never mentioned this as a determining factor) but he mentions if we have served Him by serving people; loving people.
We are implying: that you may love people, take care of the orphans, widows, those in need, those in prison, those who are sick, hurt, and loveless- but will burn in hell (or maybe squeeze into heaven but miss out on the 'greater rewards' {maybe the cars or mansions he will be handing out on 'awards night in Heaven'})- simply because we missed the 'correct' mode of baptism?

Well sounds disturbing to me?

God forgive me for misunderstanding and misguiding in the ways of baptism? May i be saved by your mercy and grace?

Your son (at least i think)
eric

Permalink Reply by Ron Payne on May 28, 2011 at 1:24am

Hi Christopher,

In order to understand where you are coming from and where you are going to,

it is important for you to give reference points when making  statements. such as "women being raped by the men of Jerusalem"  OR "We know the proven facts that the Bible has been altered" without qualifying where the source comes from. It leaves you hanging in the air without any support..

Without producing references,  is like taking a verse that says: "All sinners will go to Hell" and then taking another verse that says: "Now go and do likewise."  

In any conversation where accusations or statements are made refernce points ARE NEEDED to support the argument..

 

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on May 28, 2011 at 3:23am

 

Excellent point Ron.

 

Thank you for pointing that out to our brother.

 

Christopher,

 

The bible has not been altered. The word of God is infallible and inerrant. 

 

You are making a huge mistake and accusation/claim and have not posted one shred of evidence to support it. Please show us where you are finding what you claim the bible teaches.

 

You are attacking the word of God and that is an extremely serious matter.

 

Love and blessings to you.

 

check this out:

Is the Bible we used today faithful to the original languages or is it corrupted?

http://www.allaboutgod.net/group/allaboutgodnet/forum/topics/is-the...

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