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To Bake or not to Bake.
A Daily Signal Exclusive: Bakers Facing $135K Fine Over Wedding Cake for Same-Sex Couple Speak Out
https://www.facebook.com/TheDailySignalNews/videos/486012274898063/
Can somebody force somebody else to do something against their will?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by thewatchman on
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Really good points have been made here.
I will be honest, didn't watch the video, started to...but didn't completely watch. I am not going to disagree or agree with many of the responses here, they all have valid points and opinions. I believe that all of this has a far deeper meaning than just baking a cake.
This is about getting fundamental beliefs set aside so that stronger laws become enforced, regarding tolerance and changing our core values. It will soon be disallowed to be a Christian. We can say what sins do we throw out and what sins do we keep to make this relevant? I'm a little surprised....none of them according to God's Word. God doesn't tolerate sin, what makes us think that we have that authority as Christians...not just talking about homosexuality either, talking about it all. Have we thrown the Bible out?
It's not even about homosexuality, it's about abiding in God's Word, being made into Christ likeness, sanctification, being made Holy. Where do you draw the line? At God's Word is a safe assumption.
Baking a cake is irrelevant to me....it's the purpose behind it. I feel alone today...alone in believing that the only purpose for this lawsuit is to win approval for sin.
If I'm a Christian and own a business...my business will certainly be a Christian owned business. I completely understand what you are saying LT about it being the person being Christian and not the business...but if the business is owned by a Christian, then it would too, follow that a Christian would be making those decisions based upon their convictions and conscious.
Someday we are all going to enter into some very hard times....mark my words, if you are a dedicated Christ follower you have already entered into some of those times, but it's going to become far worse. I pray for everyone all the time...I am not selective in my prayers, all are included.
I love you all.
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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I believe that all of this has a far deeper meaning than just baking a cake.
Agreed
If I'm a Christian and own a business...my business will certainly be a Christian owned business. I completely understand what you are saying LT about it being the person being Christian and not the business...but if the business is owned by a Christian, then it would too, follow that a Christian would be making those decisions based upon their convictions and conscious.
I agree, but there is a problem that persists. As a Christian when we open a business we are governed by the laws of the land. God's law trumps, but in some cases this may mean that we simply cannot or will not own that business, because in a land of laws being Christian does not give us a pass. While it is true that our nation was founded on Christian principles (for I do not believe there is such a thing as a Christian nation ... to the exception of the whole of God's people dispersed throughout the earth) we are bound to the laws of the land (to a point and when we rebel there are consequences) and are aware of those laws. We can fight to retain laws or change them, but the nation will enforce the laws that are on the books. We have seen this nation slide so far that we are even having this conversation, but as sad as it is, it is where we are today.
Not attempting to debate or be contentious ... just commenting. For me, again, a cake is only a product and is not the same as material participation. There is a line that cannot be crossed, but for me this particular instance is not that line for the reasons I stated previously.
Someday we are all going to enter into some very hard times....mark my words, if you are a dedicated Christ follower you have already entered into some of those times, but it's going to become far worse.
Agreed. I am not a conspiracy theorist, but am convinced that there is a strong possibility that I could go to jail for what I believe and preach in my lifetime.
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Agreed. I am not here to change laws but to live life according to Christ Jesus. This isn't nor ever has been a political agenda but an eternal one, if it's seen as the prior, then it is one that will never happen according to the Bible, it will just continue to wax evil worse and worse
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Permalink Reply by Tammy on
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I would like to say from the get-go that I'm not justifying the sin or saying we should be tolerant of it. But one point to consider here is Romans 13:1-7 “Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
This, too, is God's Word which is to be abided by. So, as a Christian owning a business, which Scriptures do you choose to keep? Do you follow the laws of man or do you go against these Scriptures & refuse service?
Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? I believe this, too, is another point. We live in a society of sin and there is no way to avoid it.
When going to the grocery store, do you not go through the check out line because the person ringing you up is in an adulterous relationship? Do you not get gas because the lady working inside is an escort? What about looking for a job to provide for your family, do you not take a position because your boss lives in sin? I remember years ago, our town was dry. You would have to drive to the next city to get alcohol. When they finally voted it in, some Godly Christians chose to not get groceries at the store that sold the alcohol. I did as well which was all well & good for a time. Soon, they all sold it so then what? We starve?
I feel there are ways to take your stand but still provide a service. Like I said earlier, maybe have some Scripture as a trademark on all of your creations so no matter what, it's in their face. Agree to give them service but relate how you disagree with their lifestyle. More then likely, they will take their business elsewhere. There are always actions we can take representing Christ and we could also be a great witness for Him through it. I've known businesses that, thru the name of the business, there was no question about Who they represented. There are so many ways to take a stand. If a person or business chooses to discriminate, I would suggest they not open their own business, especially if every dime they own is put into it. As much as we hate things in this world & would love to live in a white pristine pure world, it's not going to happen on this side of death. In the meantime, how do we carry the Name of Christ? Do we turn others away because we don't want to deal with their sins or share the love of Christ? Do we shun them? I do feel as a business owner, you have entered a covenant with the state which means you will abide by the laws & mandates placed there which means serving the public regardless of who they are. The Lord honors that covenant & expects you to as well.
On the flip side, I don't know the answer 100%. We had another discussion a good while back about going into strip clubs to witness. I was totally against it but I felt it was wrong mostly because they helped the girls with their make-up & hair. I felt they were helping them walk into their shame & sin. The bakers could be seen as also giving a helping hand, walking them into their sin although they don't need a cake to commit this sin. So, I can see both sides of this situation although I am more in the lines of that if you have a business, you follow the law of the land as the Lord commands. Personally, I either wouldn't start my own business or prepare myself ahead of time that we were going to confront these situations & what steps needed to be taken when they do come.
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Permalink Reply by Carla on
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Hi Everyone,
Thanks for all the responses.. It was incredible for me to sign on today and read thru all of your thoughtful replies.
It is such a tender topic...isn't it?
It seems that the world is driven by a law ethic because that's all they have. There has to be laws in place for 'fairness', justice, equality, etc.... but the thing they are striving for is falling short because they are leaving out a huge important factor....which is 'Love'.
This is where we come in...as Christians. However, even we aim to look at the law which causes us to say 'What are the rules?', and we end up aiming too low.
We are to walk in the Spirit. We have a Love ethic...don't we?
Interestingly at church today, my Pastor taught on
Titus 3:1-8
"Remind them to be subject to rulers, to authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good deed, 2 to malign no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing every consideration for all men. 3 For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another. 4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs [a]according to the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men."
This is beautiful....Things that stand out for me...
~We are subject to rulers and authorities
~We are to be ready for every good deed
~We are to show every consideration for all men
~We were once foolish ourselves...hateful and hating
~But God saved us because of His Mercy
~We have been regenerated and renewed
~Justified
Amanda mentioned Romans 14... weak in faith vs strong in faith... That's one of the things I posted on facebook. I agree.
LT mentioned that baking a cake is not the same as materially participating.. I agree. The line has to be drawn somewhere.
Mischelle reminds us that we are all sinners in need of a Saviour. Amen.
Different questions come up about where to draw the line.. ie: do we bake for an idolator? a drug lord? A known abortion doctor? etc etc....
It just makes me think.... why are they worse than other sinners? Who am I to say their sin is worse than telling a lie? Sin is sin. Don't we want everyone to see the love of Jesus? Don't we want everyone to repent? That's God's heart after all. God desires for all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
There are no hard fast answers when it comes to things like this...but, we do have the Holy Spirit to guide us, and we have general principles outlined in God's Book.
There are many factors to consider with each individual case...But as we ask The Holy Spirit for wisdom He gives it to us.
So I think it comes down to one thing.
What does Love look like?
Blessings, Carla
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Permalink Reply by Mischelle on
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Personally, I think Love looks like everything we as Christ followers do from a pure heart for others without seeking anything for our own selfish gain; but rather showing the Love of Christ in everything we do. I think we should not judge anyone, remembering how it feels to be judged by others.
Carla, Love is the Key Ingredient. We need to go bake some cakes!
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absolutely... it could be a new 'code saying' within the church..
"Let's go bake some cakes"
:-)
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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But aren't we judging those who feel it's a sin to make a wedding cake for a same-sex wedding when we say they aren't responding in love? We must please God, not men. It looks, to me, like they are saying that they are willing to serve homosexuals for other occasions but just not willing to serve at a gay marriage. They might actually have a defense under the Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA). I would like to see how it turns out for them. Perhaps it is a freedom in Christ but it is wrong to convince someone to do what in their minds is sin. Romans 14:14-15 also mentions love.
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Amanda,
For me personally, I think everyone has the right to make their own decisions. If it appears I am judging I sincerely apologize. I think we should all live by our personal convictions. I admire them for standing for theirs. I think it's horrible they are having to go through this because of their convictions.
My personal conviction in all matters where any sin is concerned is the same as Paul's
"To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some." (1 Corinthians 9:22, NIV)
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Even if they do have a defense under the Religious Freedom Restoration Act... aren't they still aiming too low?
We are not to judge those who are outside the church, but it is different for those who are inside:
1 Cor 5
9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; 10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. 11 But [f]actually, I wrote to you not to associate [g]with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13 But those who are outside, God [h]judges.
I believe the couple did what they really felt was right, I believe they didn't hope or strive to reject or hurt those people. It is wrong to convince someone to do what in their minds is sin... so Case by Case, lead by the Spirit...maybe that's where Romans 14 is relevant in this case.
This is not an enviable position to be in... I feel bad for them. Maybe it's just a simple case of persecution.
Even so, it's worth us taking a look at so that we can learn to apply it to our own lives.
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