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To Bake or not to Bake.
A Daily Signal Exclusive: Bakers Facing $135K Fine Over Wedding Cake for Same-Sex Couple Speak Out
https://www.facebook.com/TheDailySignalNews/videos/486012274898063/
Can somebody force somebody else to do something against their will?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Tammy on
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I'll have to watch the video. I haven't seen it. That's interesting that they've baked for them before but then took a stand on this particular issue. It was as much of a sin before as the marriage was. Our expectations of those without Christ should not be anything more than that - a sinner lost without Christ. How else should they live? By the standards of what we hold? I've went over this in my mind many times. Why do we expect the world to live as we live as Christians? Why do we hold them to the same standard? They don't believe anything close to what we believe so should we have those expectations of them? Not that we force anyone to believe & live the guide lines of the Bible but if we did, we would be no different then the radical Muslims. There are many Christians who resents the sinner from which they use to belong. The very sight of them turns their stomach when it should break their heart. I know at one point in history, one was executed if they didn't follow the laws & rules of the Catholic Church. Now the Catholic Church & Christianity are bi-polar opposite but that was an example that popped into my mind. I'm not really asking anyone these questions but am typing out loud.
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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What confuses me is where she states that they have made cakes for them before but just couldn't for this event. Yet, all through the video he and she both talk about their beliefs and about being forced to do something against their will. They chose to close their shop because they were getting many such referrals for wedding cakes, at least this is how I understand the reason. So it was a refusal due to their Christian convictions but I wondered about what she said, too, about serving them before but couldn't for that event.
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As far as your questions go, they are worth considering since you might make a cake for the abortionist for other reasons, but would you make one that said "Congrats on 12,000 patients served" or would you want to supply the clinic with medical supplies, etceteras? We have to pay taxes and the funds are used in sinful ways but the law says pay taxes. Yet, we protest the use of our taxes for abortion, etceteras. If sin is sin and we all sin, then why worry how our taxes are used? If we're forced to walk a mile, then walk two. Does that apply?
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This is a sad issue but I liked to spit my Coke across the floor when you said this: would you make one that said Congrats on 12,000 patients served
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It might be that Romans 14 and 1 Cor 8 applies here and that this husband and wife are weak Christians and to them the state is asking them to do what in their minds is sin to do. If they are going to use the defense of claiming a religious freedom violation then I know that claim can be made but one must show (perhaps the reason behind making the video) that there is a sincere religious belief behind their action and that the state action has placed undue burden on them as they live out and seek to practice their religious belief.
In the news, Hobby Lobby and Conestoga Woods Specialties have sued the government over the birth control mandate that Obama's administration has started, saying it violated their religious freedom.
We also have discussed Starbucks here on AAG for its CEO allegedly saying they don't want your business if you support traditional marriage. http://www.allaboutgod.net/forum/topics/starbucks-ceo-if-you-suppor...
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Hobby Lobby Wins: Supreme Court Rules Christian-Owned Businesses Can Reject Birth-Control Mandate
http://m.christianpost.com/news/hobby-lobby-wins-supreme-court-rule...
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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What is the purpose of a business and who gives the business the right to operate?
- Most business either sell a product, provide a service or actively do both. In this case the product for sale is a cake.
- Owning a business, in most countries, require authorization from the government in order to open the business. This authorization includes rights, restrictions and various regulations. When one opens a business they should be aware of those rights, restrictions and various regulations. Even if the laws change after you have been open for business you are still aware of these changes and must recognize that the business you operate is governed by these things. Owning a business is a privilege that is often viewed as a right. It is a right only to a point and all businesses are under the rule of law. The questions is not whether a business is expected to abide by and comply with all rules and regulations, but rather is there a point that the owner has a right to break those rules and regulations due to personal convictions. I will address that shortly from my POV.
One error, IMO, is that we often view business as living beings and give value to the business that is designed for individuals. An example of what I am saying is we often hear people talk about a “Christian” business. There is no such thing. Christian is a human being that has been transformed by God whereas a business is just that … a business, an inanimate object with no life or will. We hear about Christian Radio stations. I disagree. There are radio stations that play Christ centered music and hold to Christian values, but the station is inanimate. The same can be said of Christian bookstores and T.V. stations. This is true of the bakery. It is not a Christian bakery … it is a bakery owned by Christians. They, as owners, have convictions, but they own a business that is granted as a privilege to own and are expected to operate the business in accordance with the law. Their business is selling cakes. The purchaser wanted a cake. The law says these individuals have the right to purchase a cake from this retailer.
As a Christian we must ask ourselves when a conviction overrides the law? IMO the distinction takes place when a person is asked to go beyond selling a product to having a material participation in the event. The cake is a cake, but would one expect a wedding singer or musician to sing or play at the wedding for the couple if they are by conviction opposed to gay marriage? Currently in the U.S. as a pastor I am shielded from having to choose between the law and my conviction regarding performing the wedding. That will likely change, but what will not change is my conviction that will not allow me to participate regardless of the consequences.
This came to mind as I pondered Carla’s post. Jesus when asked about paying taxes to the Roman government stated that we are to give unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s. Those taxes were used to support the Roman army’s quest to conquer the world and maintain rule over Israel. Those taxes supported the temples of various gods. Those taxes were used to support a lifestyle completely foreign to the Jews of Jesus time, yet Jesus said give to Caesar what is Caesar’s. Is the cake God’s cake or Caesar’s cake?
Thus, if you sell a product … then sell the product. If you are asked to materially participate that is another thing.
Let’s expand this for a moment. What about a Bed and Breakfast? What do they sell or provide? They provide rooms for a fee. Who does the law say is allowed to rent these rooms? Is the B&B owner responsible for every action that takes place in the room or are they providing a room? Here is a question … do such individuals require a marriage certificate to be provided before renting a room to a heterosexual couple to be sure that they are not engaging in sex outside of marriage, or committing adultery. Thus, providing a product is not the same as material participation or in some way demonstrating that you condone the event or activity.
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My parents told me years ago, it was a requirement to show a marriage license before being able to rent a room.
Good post. I agree. I also feel, as a Christian, we can do things that in the end, they won't desire our services or will at least ponder on getting someone else. The catch phrase to the business could be somewhat Scriptural. Maybe on each cake, it's your trademark to put that quote somewhere on your creations. There are many ways we can witness to the world through these services.
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Another POV to ponder.
If you live in the United States and earn money you pay taxes. A portion of our tax dollars are used to pay for abortions. Do I stop paying taxes when I know a portion of my required tax is used in this way. The law says I have to pay taxes and there are laws that govern the operation of businesses. Some may not see this as an apples for apples exchange, but for me do I choose to break the one law and yet abide by the other that is killing babies? I go back to the view point of material participation as being a line that I could not cross, though I am sure some would seeing paying taxes as material participation ... I do not.
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