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The Parting of the Ways- The split between Judaism and Christianity was gradual....
The Parting of the Ways
By Anne Amos
Introduction
... The split between Judaism and Christianity was gradual and happened at different rates in different places. There is remarkably little agreement among scholars as to what precisely caused the rift and estimates vary about the date, from the middle of the first century CE to the middle of the fourth CE.
Professor Alan Crown from Sydney goes beyond the reserve of most scholars and dates "the parting of the ways" to the Council of Nicaea 325 CE, a date which I accept. The Council of Nicaea was called by the Emperor Constantine to settle some theological differences that were dividing his Christian Empire. The first act of the three hundred bishops assembled was to set a date for Easter distinct from the Jewish Passover thereby effectively separating Jews and Christians. (continued on the following web page.)l and happened at different rates in different places. There is remarkably little agreement among scholars as to what precisely caused the rift and estimates vary about the date, from the middle of the first century CE to the middle of the fourth CE.
Professor Alan Crown from Sydney goes beyond the reserve of most scholars and dates "the parting of the ways" to the Council of Nicaea 325 CE, a date which I accept. The Council of Nicaea was called by the Emperor Constantine to settle some theological differences that were dividing his Christian Empire. The first act of the three hundred bishops assembled was to set a date for Easter distinct from the Jewish Passover thereby effectively separating Jews and Christians. (continued on the following web page.)
http://www.jcrelations.net/The+Parting+of+the+Ways.2237.0.html?L=3
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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Ann,
I have to admit I am a little dumbfounded. You have caught me by surprise. I think LT recognized it but I really did not recognize your beliefs. If I am understanding your post correctly, you are propagating an extreme anti-Christian position. What does the Word say:
Heb 9:27-28
27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him. NIVI didn't think you really were supporting a second chance but now you clearly seem to be doing so. Do you realize that you have just made Stephen's death, James' death, Paul's death, Peter's death and all the rest of those early Christian believers that gave their lives preaching to the lost ones of Israel that they had to come to Christ, a total waste of time, effort, purpose and life. If God was going to raise those people back to life to give them a chance to receive Christ anyway, why did they have to die like that. The prophets of old had a common message of the Messiah that was to come. Some had to die violent deaths for their message. What about Isaiah - was his death in vain? Habakkuk - he was the one who tells us the righteous will live by faith. He spoke of the Messiah. The Jews stoned him to death. There are more. Did these prophets all die in vain? Why did they have to give their lives? Why do the nations hate the Gospel today. Some would like to make it more acceptable by saying that all would be given a second chance. This is not a part of the Gospel and men have died defending the true Gospel of Jesus. Ann, you are making their deaths without merit.
Will the rich man Jesus spoke of being in hell be raised again to be given a chance? I tell you that anyone who hungers and thirsts after righteousness will be filled. Jesus will save them from their sins. They will find Him in this life and turn to Him. Only God knows truly those who thirst after Him. He will save all of them. Those who don't, will be lost forever. There are no second chances. Today is the day of salvation. Tomorrow will be too late. Ann, forsake this ungodly teaching.
Ann, I am going to conclude with a couple of verses:
Isaiah prophecied
Isa 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. NIVJeremiah prophecied
Jer 31:21-22
21 "Set up road signs;
put up guideposts.
Take note of the highway,
the road that you take.
Return, O Virgin Israel,
return to your towns.
22 How long will you wander,
O unfaithful daughter?
The Lord will create a new thing on earth —
a woman will surround a man." NIVBoth of these prophets suffered violent deaths. We might think their deaths were premature brought on by the power of Satan's wrath. But, they would be wrong. For the message of a virgin born Savior has gone out to the ends of the earth and all who turn to Him shall be saved. But, to those who reject Him shall be eternally lost. Peter, Paul, James, John and all the others desperately wanted their fellow countrymen to accept Christ. Jeremiah was known as the weeping prophet. He lamented over the lost souls of Israel but in that same chapter he was told to stop weeping for they would return. Many of their physical brothers have come to Christ. Yet, many have not. We all weep for them for we know this is their eternal decision and one there is nothing we can do anything about. Yes, Jeremiah wept but, "Jeremiah, don't weep forever, for many will turn to God our Savior and will be saved. And not only the Jew but many from the Gentile nations as well. All of Abraham's children shall be saved"
I pray that includes you as well, Ann. The only children of Abraham are those children of faith as Habakkuk points out. Those who do not believe do not belong to Abraham. They are not born of his seed.
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Ann,
What does Jesus say about His blood during His "Last Super" teaching in Luke 22:20?
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LT,
I think that this answer is pretty tidy and neat. I'm not sure if it is completely correct. The teaching that God is going to turn His full attention to the nation of Israel after the rapture seems to be conditional on a rapture occurring before the tribulation. I have to admit that many prophecies concerning the nation of Israel do not yet appear to be fulfilled and still seem to be futuristic. At the same time Romans 9 - 11 appears to be teaching that only a remnant of Israel will be saved. I hope much of the position of some of these statements is true but I suspect that some are not. For instance, I quote:
After the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18), God will restore Israel as the primary focus of His plan. The first event at this time is the tribulation (Revelation chapters 6-19).(See above.)
I don't think God is dealing with Israel as the primary focus of His plan during this time. I think the major focus of God during these chapters is the saints. Israel is mentioned once in these chapters but it is a real stretch to say Israel is the primary focus. Israel is certainly suffering as is the rest of the world as God pours out His wrath for the rejection of His Son. I do think there will be some Jews left over after the tribulation but I am not sure how many. I really don't think there will be many. If there are a few left, I think it is possible they will be restored to their land. I really don't know, however, how God will deal with the nation when Christ returns.
I wonder if that physical nation has not finished with much of its purpose. I love the Jews and send money to a Jewish organization often that is ministering to the Jews with the Gospel and food. I'm just not sure that there is going to be a large group left when Jesus comes back. If so, that would be a wonderful thing. I absolutely know that God is going to do the absolute right thing. I trust Him completely. However, I would never give any Jew any false hope that God is going to restore them in the future. Todayis the day of salvation. I am not sure enough to tell them to relax as God is going to save them anyway. I would advise them that they had better turn to Him now and not wait.
God is not rejecting the Jew. He still has His arms wide open for any that would come to Him through His Son Jesus Christ. I do not believe there are two people of God today. There is only one people of God and they have received His Son. How He deals with Israel in the future is not detailed enough to make the kind of statements that have been made. I do believe there will be a number of Jews saved during the tribulation along with others and they become a part of a great company called the saints of God. These are His servants, the apostles, prophets, the witnesses, the ones who have had their sins removed by the blood of the Lamb. I think much of the tribulation takes place right there in Jerusalem even though other areas will experience trouble as well. At the last trumpet, all the saints of God will be removed off of this earth - both the living and the dead in Christ. I believe that is the end of it. I would not want to be left here after that trumpet sound as things are going to get very bad. I don't think that last period of God's wrath can last long or the world would not survive. There may be a few survive and maybe a few of them will be Jews. But I tell you that no one should put their faith in being left on this earth after that. Today, if you will hear His voice, turn to Him, call upon Him and you will be saved.
I have mentioned before in posts that I am somewhat of a covenant person but I am a pre-millennialist. I guess you have to take what I say with a grain of salt. I think you have mentioned that you are a pan tribulationist =- it will all pan out in the end. My confidence is in the Lord that He will do everything right. He certainly has a plan and I believe in that plan - I'm just not very sure what it is.
Blessings.
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By the way - it have been several years since I have really focused on prophecy and I am sure there are many gaps in my understanding that need to be restored.
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Roy,
This will be sort-of an overview response instead of a point-by-point response.
I believe from Scripture that the Church and the nation of Israel are two distinct groups. All people must receive Christ to be saved. There is no way around that central truth. Thus, in the church age a Jew can come to Christ and become part of the church such as Paul did. He still is a Jew by birth, but is a child of God by new birth.
I believe in a mix of dispensationalist and covenant theology. They coexist. We are currently in the church age. At some point the church will be snatched away and God will finish His work with Israel. This finishing work is not so much about them, but rather God fulfilling the promises He has made. We see in Scripture, especially in Romans 9-11, that only a remnant will be saved. Thus, not all Jews will be saved. God must fulfill those promises and He will. For the references that speak of Israel being saved we know that there will be people from each tribe saved and thus the nation is in that sense saved as a whole. Only the remnant is saved and they represent all of Israel.
Salvation is only in Christ whether looking forward to the cross or back. After the rapture there will be opportunity for people to be saved. What that looks like and how it happens is beyond my knowledge to the exception to know that it is in and through Jesus. There is also a common error made about the removing of the Restrainer. The Holy Spirit does not go anywhere as He is always everywhere. He does not leave the earth. He only removes the restraining power that is currently holding Satan back. Thus, He is still here and still able to save during the final days.
I think in the end we will all be surprised as to how God works it a out. That is why I call myself a pan-eschatologist. It will all pan out in the end because God is in control.
My greatest concern regarding end times is two fold. 1) seeing people get saved while the door is open in the church age and not trusting or waiting until afterwards as there is too much gray area there. 2) Standing against dogmatic teachings regarding the end times. Too many think they have it all figured out and in doing so can easily fool others in to following their probable error. There is just so much we don’t know, nor can know until the events are unfolding.
Lastly, regarding the rapture. There will be a snatching away. Of that I am convinced from Scripture. The timing of the event is too uncertain. Is it pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib or pre-wrath? I have a view, but believe that it could be wrong, thus I teach work as if you are going to be snatched away tomorrow and prepare as if you will go through the majority of the tribulation.
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LT,
We are certainly in agreement. We must be reading the same Book. haha
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Roy,
Wow, not only the same book, but even reading it the same way :-)
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Permalink Reply by M Ann Brown on
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Roy:
There was no "reply" botton after your last message sent an hour ago. So I am replying here.
Please stop saying that I am promoting a "second chance" I am only stating that Ez. 37 indicates that unbelieving Israel will be resurrected and given a FIRST CHANCE, since God blinded them during their lifetime for the sake of the Gentiles.
I did not say that they are "automatically saved". THEY TOO have to repent of their sins and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.
I believe the same thing for the babies, mentally deficient and Gentiles who have never had a chance or mental capability to believe. A just God would not send them to everburning hell, either.
Or do you relegate little children dying before they could believe in the Lord Jesus to eternal hell too?
This group here is called ALL ABOUT GOD. The following is what God says about Himself:
And the Lord descended in the cloud and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord. The Lord passed before him, and proclaimed
"The Lord, the Lord, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children's children to the third and the fourth generation." Ex. 34
That is the God I believe in. He would not have created a world wherein most would never even hear about Jesus and send them to hell before they had a choice/chance whether to believe or not.
Regarding the prophets, both in the NT and OT, the were pleading with their fellow countrymen, to not violate God's covenant, the voilation of which brought on the curses of the law, in the last part of Deut 28.
Those curses included being conquored by other nations, losing their autonomy as a nations, being taken into slavery along with their wives and chldren, famine, disease and death. None of them had a clear picture about what God was doing to/for Israel, or how God would do it. It is still a MYSTERY. We see through a "glass darkly".
We don't know how God will judge any individual Jew. We are told by Jesus, "No man can come to meEXCEPT the father draw him
John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Does this statement from Jesus, appear that God is calling everyone today? No it does not. "EXCEPT" is a word that makes God's drawing "conditional" not "automatic".
As Paul stated, God has blinded some of the Jews. God the Father is apparently not calling the Jew at this time or He would not have blinded them.
I don't know all the answers, I know the love, kindness and forgiveness of God. I know the Jews have been blinded. I know there are babies and mentally deficient people, women behind the burkahs who have and will never have a chance to believe.
My husband with whom I am sharing this conversation here, said that your view of God and Hitler dangerously similar:
Hitler burned the Jews bodies after physical death.
God is now burning those same unbelieving Jews's who He blinded, (including their babies and young children) souls forever.
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Ann,
The answer to your last comment is that everyone who does not receive Jesus in this life will experience eternity in hell. This includes Jew and Gentile. The love of God does not overshadow the righteousness and justice of God. Romans 10 is pretty clear on this point and in the fact that they must hear the gospel to believe and in order to hear the gospel preachers must be sent.
Nowhere in Scripture will you find them being raised to life to be given an opportunity to accept Jesus after having died. That is not what Eze. 37 is teaching. You have misundertood God's Word in this case. Read John 5:28-29.
There is a doctrine found in Scripture that you may want to study. It is called "The Lostness of Man."
Your analogy (husband's) using Hitler is uncalled for and a ridiculous attempt to make a point that is not even close to the same thing.
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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M. Ann,
In reading everything in this discussion, I do understand some of your frustration as I am trying to break it down and finding it a real challenge, too. I think accusations are unnecessary. We have to remember that God is Sovereign, all-knowing and all-seeing, and Hitler was not. Whatever God does is right. I didn't like the way you said that.
My understanding from reading Jeremiah 31:31-34, is that the new covenant was made with Israel but wonderfully and thankfully by God’s grace gentiles are allowed to share in it. Luke 22:20 says, In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.”
The new covenant does not mean God is through with Israel. There is just one olive tree. I may be misunderstanding them, but I think Roy and LT are saying that after the rapture and the church age ends, God will turn attention to Israel and the Deliverer will come from Zion and forgive the sins of a remnant of Israel. It may mean that the remnant will be the last generation of Israel, people from every tribe, but not every one of them. I know it does make us ask, “But what happens to Jews who have died without believing in Jesus? Are they saved or are they eternally lost?” I am one who has asked this. I am not one who can answer it except to say that decision is God’s business and I know God is just and good and right.
Where do you think the ones are who died on the day Moses came down from the mountain and found them worshipping a golden calf? I can’t see that they along with every Jew that has ever lived and died will be resurrected and allowed to have a chance to accept Jesus during the thousand years. What I can see is that those alive who make it through the time when God pours out His wrath and they see Jesus, the Deliverer coming from Zion … I can see them being allowed to enter the thousand years with Christ as their King …
We just don’t have all the answers. I would love to see the whole world know Jesus as personal Savior but I know that is not going to happen. Many Jews perished in the desert because of their unbelief. Where are they now? It’s God’s business. Final judgment is His and His ways are higher than our ways and God chose to blind the Jews and we are in no place to say it’s not fair.
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Ann,
What you are saying is that the Jew will be raised from the dead and given the chance to receive the Gospel. If God did this for the Jew, He would have to do this for all men as He is no respecter of persons. This is called "ultimate reconciliation" which is a cultic message. I don't know what God will do for the little children. That is up to God and not me. I have clearly stated that those who reject Christ will be lost. I have also stated that all who call on Him will be saved (Jew or Gentile). The rich man in hell looked up to his father, Abraham, and asked him to send Lazarus to touch the tip of his tongue with water. He begged him to send Lazarus to warn his brothers to not come to this place of torment. Abraham reported that even if someone rose from the dead they still would not believe. They rejected Moses and the Prophets. Their fate was eternal.
Ann, I think you are showing too much favor to the Jews. We have much to be grateful for these wonderful people. They were chosen by God to give us Moses, The Law, the prophets, our Lord Jesus and the very Word of God. They have blessed this world without measure. Yet, they are not given a pass to reject Christ. They were given great favor but that does not give an excuse for unbelief. You are showing too much favor. I only had a few minutes here but will talk more later. I must go to a meeting. Blessings.
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