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The Parting of the Ways- The split between Judaism and Christianity was gradual....
The Parting of the Ways
By Anne Amos
Introduction
... The split between Judaism and Christianity was gradual and happened at different rates in different places. There is remarkably little agreement among scholars as to what precisely caused the rift and estimates vary about the date, from the middle of the first century CE to the middle of the fourth CE.
Professor Alan Crown from Sydney goes beyond the reserve of most scholars and dates "the parting of the ways" to the Council of Nicaea 325 CE, a date which I accept. The Council of Nicaea was called by the Emperor Constantine to settle some theological differences that were dividing his Christian Empire. The first act of the three hundred bishops assembled was to set a date for Easter distinct from the Jewish Passover thereby effectively separating Jews and Christians. (continued on the following web page.)l and happened at different rates in different places. There is remarkably little agreement among scholars as to what precisely caused the rift and estimates vary about the date, from the middle of the first century CE to the middle of the fourth CE.
Professor Alan Crown from Sydney goes beyond the reserve of most scholars and dates "the parting of the ways" to the Council of Nicaea 325 CE, a date which I accept. The Council of Nicaea was called by the Emperor Constantine to settle some theological differences that were dividing his Christian Empire. The first act of the three hundred bishops assembled was to set a date for Easter distinct from the Jewish Passover thereby effectively separating Jews and Christians. (continued on the following web page.)
http://www.jcrelations.net/The+Parting+of+the+Ways.2237.0.html?L=3
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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I am pretty sure they believe that the Passover began sundown Friday. Their discussion is more about the Last Supper rather than a Passover meal. That is Scriptural:
Jn 18:28 Then the Jews led Jesus from Caiaphas to the palace of the Roman governor. By now it was early morning, and to avoid ceremonial uncleanness the Jews did not enter the palace; they wanted to be able to eat the Passover. NIV
Jesus did want to eat the Passover with them as mentioned in the other Gospels but that would have to have been the night before. However, my question is was the 14th that year on a Thursday or Friday. The 15th or Passover was also a Sabbath to the Jew. Jesus would had to have been taken down from the cross and buried before the 15th. If the special Sabbath that year was on Friday, that would mean He would have been crucified on Thursday rather than Friday. The urgency to have Him down from the cross and buried before the Sabbath would still have been there if the 15th began sundown Thursday. That would mean that He would have died on the 14th at 3:00 PM, buried before sundown and in the grave the 15th (sundown Thursday to sundown Friday), the 16th (sundown Friday to sundown Saturday), and rose early on Sunday morning would would fulfill both Scriptures which say He would be in the tomb three days and three nights and would be raised on the 3rd day. This scenario has Him in the tomb two and a half days rather than one and a half day. He would be in the tomb three nights and two full days and be raised on the third day. Regardless, I believe Jesus ate the Passover meal the beginning of the 14th day rather than on the ending of the 14th day. When the Jews took Him to Pilate, they would not enter Pilate's quarters since it was the day of preparation or the 14th. Since this was the 14th, He ate the meal that day, prayed in the Garden and was arrested probably sometime after midnight. This also seems to help with the chronology of that week. He entered into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday or the 10th which began the day of observation of the Lamb. He would have been observed on the 10th, 11th, 12th and 13th and crucified on the 14th which would have been Thursday. This eliminates the silent Wednesday as that would have been the day He was preparing to eat the Passover with His disciples. However, my faith does not rest on a Thursday or Friday crucifixion. It rests on His death, burial and resurrection.
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Permalink Reply by M Ann Brown on
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The chronology of the crucifixion week, has been challenged in or modern day at least for over a century. The problem is there is a fixation on a "Friday crucifixion" the traditional date thereof, however there are alternative views, for a
1) Wednesday Crucifixion.
2) Thursday Crucifixion.The problem arises when the "Sabbath" mentioned in the texts is forced to be the Sabbath that galls on the "7th day of the week". All Bible scholars know that there were at least 7 other days in the Jewish calendar called "Sabbath".
This whole week is like a jigsaw puzzle, but if one allows the pieces to fit together, (I like to refer to it as "crime scene evidence" which it is), one will see that the Friday crucifixion/Sunday resurrection cannot be supported by the texts, and the content thereof.
But that needs to be started in another thread, which I will start upon checking the archives to see if this has been discussed before.
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If you maintain that Jesus actually died on the 14th, and that the 14th was on a Thursday that year, there would have been quite a stir on the 10th or Palm Sunday of that holy week. On the 10th of the first month, the high priest would go out the western gate to inspect the lambs for the one perfect passover lamb. Then, after have chosen the lamb would enter from the north at the Damascus Gate. This was a huge celebration for the Jews. The streets would have been lined up with observers with palm branches ready to celebrate the high priest bringing in the lamb. There would have been shouts and very loud commotion already on that day. I think God had all this calculated for at the time the priest was bringing in the lamb from the north, the Lamb of God was riding into the city from the east on a foal. The streets would have been full and the people with their palm branches would have rushed to see what this other uproar was. For here was the true Lamb of God that was to take away the sins of the world. O Jerusalem, behold your Lamb comes but you have rejected Him. The uproar that day would have been deafening. The 10th began the days of inspection and Jesus was seen everyday in the Temple teaching the way of the Kingdom of God. Blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord.
On the 10th, the Lamb came into Jerusalem riding on a donkey. Later that week, on the 14th, the people cried, "Crucify Him, Crucify Him," not realizing this was the Lamb of God sent to take away all of our sins. They crucified Him fulfilling the will of God that He would be punished for our sin. Pilate found Him innocent of any crime but more importantly, the Father had inspected His life and His life was found perfect. The perfect Lamb was sacrificed for me. I am forever humbled. How could any reject this perfect Lamb?
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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Will all Israel be saved? I have heard and read the arguments but have never decided what is right. Christianity Today had an article about it in November 2009. It was not definitive either.
First, who is “all Israel”? All of the elect--both Jew and gentile? The church--the Body of Christ--is saved by grace through faith and are born again. Will anyone be saved after the church-age ends? If so, will their salvation be by new birth or by another way?I have lots of questions about it and a dear friend who is a Jew but who is definitely “blinded.” Is that a judgment on her? Is she condemned to hell?
I don’t know.
Is “all Israel” national Israel?
Is “all Israel” the nation but not every Israelite, just a remnant?
To me, it looks pretty bleak for all those Israelites who have died without being born again since the resurrection. Jesus came to the lost sheep of Israel. Many accepted but many more rejected Him. Yet, from what I understand, God did make promises to the nation of Israel that God has not made to other nations.
I think the common hope held by many is that God will begin calling many Jews and drawing them to Jesus to be born again as many were when the church age first began. Even many of the Pharisees accepted Jesus as Savior according to the book of Acts even though they had a difficult time letting go of the law.
Will God call them during the Great Tribulations? Or maybe not until Christ’s second coming? Or will that be too late?
Also, as I read about Zacchaeus in Luke 19, I was impressed by the verses:
5 When Jesus reached the spot, he looked up and said to him, “Zacchaeus, come down immediately. I must stay at your house today.” 6 So he came down at once and welcomed him gladly.
7 All the people saw this and began to mutter, “He has gone to be the guest of a sinner.”
8 But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.”
9 Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”Does it mean salvation came to Zacchaeus without need of the new birth, simply because he was a son of Abraham who had faith and believed in Jesus and repented?
That was before the church age began.
If it means that, then after the church age ends there could be hope for Israel and for those not killed by the plagues, when they see Jesus at the Second Coming … perhaps… I really don’t know and just have many questions.
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Whew!
I am very hesitant to answer as it is very controversial. I will just say that not everyone who is born as a descendant of Abraham is truly a part of the family of God. God knows those who are His. So many of Israel's descendants have rejected Him. In doing so, they have rejected the very God they earnestly sought. No one can be justified by seeking to obey the Law. Only those who put their faith in Jesus. There are some things we do not understand but I definitely do not believe that anyone who has rejected Him will ever find their way into heaven. There are no second chances. Everyone who calls on His name will be saved. How sad it is that so many have failed to see Him as God the Messiah. There is no other. I will standby as hopefully others comment. I refrain from getting too deep into this.
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Roy,
I know you know this, but these agree with your view: John 3, John 14:6 and Romans 6:23 are pretty clear, not to mention Acts 4:12. Salvation is found in Jesus only, whether Jew or Gentile. No one gets a pass. All sin must be dealt with by a just God. For the born again our sins are dealt with through Jesus on the cross, for all others their sin remains on them and they are still guilty before a holy God, unless they come to Christ for salvation on God's terms..
Lord Bless,
LT
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LT, I agree with all you have said. When the church age ends, what will be God's terms then? Or will it all be over?
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What I mean is we are all saved by grace. Even in the OT. They believed in Jesus and their faith was counted as righteousness. After the rapture, will any be saved? The new birth will no longer be available, will it? Will any be saved by grace another way after the rapture? During the thousand years reign, will people be saved? Will some be lost? These are the parts I don't understand.
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Amanda,
Your questions are hard to answer with certainty. We need to be cautious when speaking of future events, and here is why. If we get one piece wrong in the foundation we will develop a belief that progressively gets further from the mark. With this said, I will share what I think is found in God’s Word.
The first part to establish is “when is the rapture?” There are four different times presented by people who love Jesus with all their heart. If the rapture occurs at the end of the tribulation there will be no opportunity for people to be saved after the rapture, at least prior to the millennium. If it occurs pre-trib, mid-trib or pre-wrath there is a period of time that has to be addressed between the rapture and the Second Coming. One of the errors that has developed is that people view the removing of the restrainer to mean that the Holy Spirit is removed from the earth. That is not and cannot be the case. God is omnipresent. His removal is the removal of His retraining power that holds back evil. Just imagine, we think that the world is pretty wicked now, but what will it be like after He is no longer restraining. Back to point. The next thing we find is people believe that no one can be transformed (born again) after the church age because the church has been removed. Thus we have an idea that the church is gone and the Holy Spirit is gone. If that were the whole story, then I would have to believe that there would be no hope for these people. Yet, we know the following. The Holy Spirit is not leaving, only the church. The church does not save anyone, only Jesus and this in cooperation with the work of the Holy Spirit in saving power. Saving power is not the same thing as restraining power. Thus, those who hear of the name of Jesus and put their faith in Him in the interim period can be saved, but without the church witness, it will be difficult. We also know that God will return to His work with the Jews in this period (unless you are post-trib or replacement theology. I am neither). It is God’s work to reveal His Son to the nation of Israel, but this new life does not make them partakers of the bride, for the Bride is gone and will reign with Christ in the Millennium. Then, what is the future of these people? Note that in the millennium kingdom that there will be people who are being reigned over. It is believed by some, including me, that these are the folks who come through the great tribulation. They will multiply and live during the 1000 year reign. At the close of the 1000 year reign there will be people on the earth who will join with Satan after he is released from the pit. These are many of the children who do not put their faith in Jesus. They are born to believing parents but have no faith of their own, for salvation is an individual experience.
I will stop at this point and restate that when we talk of the future there are some things that are very clear and other things that are not so clear. Thus, this POV I presented is subject to debate as there are also those who have different views on the millennium (pre, a (“a” means no), post) and other points as well.
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You said:
>If we get one piece wrong in the foundation we will develop a belief that progressively gets further from the mark
True. Many arrive at wrong conclusions … but it’s not limited to these doctrines about end times. I see it happening in all the doctrines. A verse from here and a verse from there and a faulty assumption and another verse, etc…, etc…
Replacement Theology teaches that the church is Israel and promises given to Israel are for the church. Post-Trib Rapture--would happen after tribulations and right before the Second Coming as if both are combined--Second Coming and Rapture/Resurrection.
I’ve always believed the church would be here and will suffer during great tribulations but will be removed before the plagues begin--pre-wrath. Although people will be left alive during the plagues and all will not be killed by the plagues, it says those not killed will just curse God more, so it makes me wonder how could anyone be saved after the rapture? Yet we know people will be alive to see Jesus when He returns again. So maybe that is when they will be born again, when they actually see Him and that is when they will stop cursing God and believe???
Additionally, after the Second Coming, anyone who would die during the thousand years, would be part of the Second Resurrection that takes place after a thousand years, wouldn’t they?
So those who believe when they “see”at the Second Coming---maybe they are the ones allowed to live on earth during the thousand years and maybe they will be most of the nation of Israel???
You see, I don’t know. I guess that would be a second chance and not allowable.
>Saving power is not the same thing as restraining power.
I’ve always heard it preached that the Spirit will leave earth when the Rapture occurs and will no longer strive with man but I see how your POV has merit.
>We also know that God will return to His work with the Jews in this period
I know God is not through with Israel.
>It is God’s work to reveal His Son to the nation of Israel, but this new life does not make them partakers of the bride, for the Bride is gone and will reign with Christ in the Millennium. Then, what is the future of these people? Note that in the millennium kingdom that there will be people who are being reigned over. It is believed by some, including me, that these are the folks who come through the great tribulation. They will multiply and live during the 1000 year reign. At the close of the 1000 year reign there will be people on the earth who will join with Satan after he is released from the pit. These are many of the children who do not put their faith in Jesus. They are born to believing parents but have no faith of their own, for salvation is an individual experience.
This all makes good sense … it is just the part about how and when they are saved that I do not grasp. I always thought all the born again will be part of the Bride. That means Abraham and the other famous OT saints are not part of the Bride. But I don’t know if people can be born again and not be part of the Bride, too. No one in the OT was born again. These people who make it through Great Tribulation would have to be ones who survive God's wrath, wouldn't they? Since the Rapture and Resurrection will have taken place pre-wrath?
It is too much for me to grasp and it is out of my league. It is beyond my comprehension level … but that doesn’t mean I am not interested and do not want to understand it. As you can see, I have tried.
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It is true that the principle applies to all doctrine, but more so when applied to the future as much of the future s still veiled and will only be known as it unfolds. Thus we speculate using what we know, but are more prone to error in this doctrine than others due to the limited information available IMO.
Lord Bless,
LT
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This may be a foolish question--avoid it if it is--I will just ask it straight: Are all the "dead in Christ" part of the Bride, including the OT saints, and if so, then has Israel been replaced by "the Bride"? No, I've never believed in replacement theology but now ... I wonder.
I think the only people I am worried about as far as how they will be saved are the ones left alive on earth after the Rapture/Resurrection. If all who have ever lived since the beginning are part of "the Bride" then who will be left on earth during the thousand years and reigned over by the Bride and how will those people be saved?
No need to answer--this is the way my mind works all the time. Back and forth and trying to comprehend.
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