Just Do It

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on March 3, 2015 at 5:04am

So one gives scripture to prove we're supposed to tithe and another uses scripture to prove we're not.

The two sides and various flavors in between can attempt to prove their point, but there is only one truth not many various personal truths regardless of the POV man holds.

Next, because there are many various teachings one needs to understand what the implications are regarding their teaching on the subject. Do they teach that unless you tithe God will not bless you or do they teach if you do not tithe you are disobeying God and destined to hell. Thus, the topic alone does not give away what is a false teacher. It is when you dig deeper and see how their belief aligns with or breaks away from core doctrine that matters.

Permalink Reply by Carla on March 3, 2015 at 5:33am

Seek,

There are no contradictions in scripture...only misunderstandings which may lead to a perceived contradiction.  It's true that none of us have all the answers, and that's one reason why fellowship is so important.  We need to study together as a community.

I suggest to you to approach the discussion from a different frame of mind... Not to 'debate', but to 'discuss'. 

Blessings, Carla

Permalink Reply by Seek on March 3, 2015 at 5:52am

I never approached this as either according tO the original topic or claimed any contradiction in scripture.

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on March 1, 2015 at 1:10pm

Eric,

Thank you for the positive feedback and you are welcome.

Lord Bless,

LT

Permalink Reply by Amanda on March 1, 2015 at 3:34pm

Seek, it's interesting that the one paragraph in the second Copeland article is the one with which you disagree because it is the main idea of the article and all the other information in the writing are its supporting details. Perhaps the best course of action for everyone is to not share any sermon, message, article, etceteras, where the main idea is wrong, way off base, and departs from the Truth. False teaching consists of error in especially the essential doctrines of the Christian faith, but, also, there are people out there who are teaching and no matter how many times they are proven to be in error, even concerning non-essential matters, they never change their original message and continue speaking those errors. It means that they are not teachable. It's true that none of us have everything right and all of us at times have been shown our error, not only shown to us by one of God's servants (shepherds) but confirmed by the Word and the Holy Spirit, too, and we then come into agreement on the issue, but, to me, Copeland doesn't appear as someone who is a student as well as a teacher and as clay still being molded. I avoid his ministry and teaching altogether. I'll readily tell others to do so, too.

Permalink Reply by Amanda on March 2, 2015 at 2:16pm

Is the armor for fighting or for protection or both? Is there anything we can do to prevent attacks?

Something that has always bothered me is what is called victim blaming. When someone is the victim of a crime, then some will say the person was at fault themselves, was asking for trouble, provoked the attack, etc. Yet, others will say the person was just an easy, vulnerable target. No one wants to be an easy, vulnerable target. So, it makes people feel better to think that the victim provoked the attack against them and was always in control of the situation, or, at least, only lost control of the situation due to making their own bad choices and doing something wrong. The blame then is transferred from the perpetrator to the victim and others feel better because they think that the same thing won't happen to them because they won't provoke it or get caught with their guard down.

Are we instructed to use the armor to fight or to stand? Are we to stand in our own power or in the Lord's power? Are satanic forces seeking to destroy our identity in Christ? Can they really do that, or are they just attempting to deceive us into thinking our identity in Christ can be destroyed?

The covering of the armor, to me, makes us stand against Satan's attacks. 

If standing against the attacks relies upon us not sinning, and if sin opens us up to be attacked, then that matches what Copeland teaches -- "The devil can’t cause disaster in your life unless he has been given place. He can’t come in and start destroying and stealing from you unless he can get you into a place of sin, doubt, ignorance or disobedience. So if he’s been giving you trouble, ask the Holy Spirit to show you where you’ve let those things in. Then repent and get rid of them."

On the other hand, what if Satan and demons are perpetrators and christians are victims of their attacks because they are easy and vulnerable targets due to being weak in faith, not being instructed in righteousness, not knowing all the Truth, not knowing how to make peace, not being fully renewed in mind, not being completely sound in doctrine and in the Word?

Job's friends believed he was suffering due to sin. His friends were wrong.

What I see is:

We are lambs among wolves.
The armor protects; the sword of the Spirit is our sole weapon.
We must help one another mature in Christ.

Permalink Reply by Tammy on March 3, 2015 at 4:38am

Nature of God

1. God is a spirit-being with a body, complete with eyes, and eyelids, ears, nostrils, a mouth, hands and fingers, and feet. (Kenneth Copeland ministry letter, 21 July 1977.)

1. The Bible said He measured the heavens with a 9 inch span. Now the span is the difference, distance between the end of the thumb and the end of the little Finger. And, and that Bible said, in fact the amplified translation translates the Hebrew text that way. That He measured out the heavens with a 9 inch span. Well, I got a ruler and measured mine, and my span's 8 3/4 inches long. So now God's span is a quarter of an inch, a quarter inch longer than mine. So you see, that faith didn't come billowing out of some giant monster somewhere. It came out of the heart of a being that is very uncanny the way He's very much like you and me. A being that stands somewhere around 6' 2 , 6' 3, that weighs somewhere in the neighbourhood of a couple of hundred pounds, little better, has a span of 8 and, I mean nine inches across - stood up and said Light be [Let it be?], and this universe situated itself and went into motion. Glory to God. (Spirit, Soul, and a Body 1 1985, audio tape #01-0601, side 1)

1. God and Adam looked exactly alike. (The Authority of the Believer IV; Tape #01-0304)

1. God could not intervene since He had made Adam the god of the earth. God was left on the outside looking in. (Following the Faith of Abraham; Tape #01-3001)

1. I was shocked when I found out who the biggest failure in the Bible actually is. Everybody ask you ask Who's the biggest failure? They say Judas, somebody else will say No, I believe it was Adam, well how about the devil. He's the most consistent failure. But he's not the biggest in terms of material failure and so forth. The biggest one in all the Bible is God. What, what, what - don't you turn that set off - you listen to what. I told you - now you sit still a minute. You know me well enough to know I wouldn't, I wouldn't tell something I can't prove from the Bible. (Praise-a-thon program - TBN, April 1988)

Nature of Jesus

1. Jesus existed only as an image in the heart of God, until such time as the prophets of the Old Testament could positively confess Jesus into existence through their constant prophecies. (Spirit, Soul, and Body; Tape #01-0601) [Note: This is one of the key belief of the false doctrine known as Modalism: www.bible.ca/trinity/]

1. Jesus has a beginning and an end. (What Happened From the Cross to the Throne, Tape #00-0303) [Note: This is one of the key belief of the false doctrine known as Modalism: www.bible.ca/trinity/]

1. Jesus has not remained the same, he has changed. (What Happened From the Cross to the Throne, Tape #00-0303)

1. He [Jesus] allowed the devil to drag Him into the depths of hell....He allowed Himself to come under Satan's control...every demon in hell came down on Him to annihilate Him....They tortured Him beyond anything anybody had ever conceived. For three days He suffered everything there is to suffer. (The Price of It All, p3)

1. That Word of the living God went down into that pit of destruction and charged the spirit of Jesus with resurrection power! Suddenly His twisted, death-wracked spirit began to fill out and come back to life....Jesus was born again -- the firstborn from the dead the Word calls Him -- and He whipped the devil in his own backyard. (The Price of It All, p4-6.)

1. Jesus was dragged down into the bowels of Hell where He was beaten and bruised by Satan and his demons until Jesus could finally fight His way out of Hell 3 days later. (Classic Redemption, p.13) and (Believer's Voice of Victory, September 11, 1991)

1. Jesus was reborn in the pits of hell.(What Happened From the Cross to the Throne, Tape #00-0303) and (Classic Redemption, p.13)

1. Satan conquered Jesus on the Cross and took His spirit to the dark regions of hell (Kenneth Copeland Reference Edition Bible, 1991, p129)

1. Jesus took on the nature of Satan when He was on the cross. (Jesus lost His divine nature). (Doctrinal Statement dated March 12, 1979) and (What Happened From the Cross to the Throne, Tape #00-0303)

1. The day that Jesus was crucified, God's life, that eternal energy that was His from birth, moved out of Him and He accepted the very nature of death itself. (The Price of It All, Believer's Voice of Victory, September 1991, p3)

1. Jesus had to give up His righteousness (The Incarnation, side 2.)

1. Jesus had to go through that same spiritual death in order to pay the price. Now it wasn't the physical death on the cross that paid the price for sin, because if it had of been any prophet of God that had died for the last couple of thousand years before that could have paid that price. It wasn't physical death anybody could do that. (What Satan Saw on the Day of Pentecost audio tape #020022)

Nature of man

1. I say this with all respect so that it don't upset you too bad, but I say it anyway. When I read in the Bible where he [Jesus] says, 'I Am,' I just smile and say, 'Yes, I Am, too!' (Believer's Voice of Victory broadcast on TBN, recorded 7/9/87)

1. Every Christian is a god. (Substitution and Identification)

1. You don't have a God in you; you are one, (The Force of Love (Fort Worth: 1987, audiotape #02-0028, side 1)

1. You are not a spiritual schizophrenic -- half-God and half-Satan -- you are all-God (Now We Are in Christ Jesus, 1980, p16-17)

1. Adam was God manifested in the flesh. (The Authority of the Believer IV; Tape #01-0304)

1. When we use the spiritual laws that God has set up, God must obey what we request. (Praise the Lord broadcast, TBN, recorded 2/5/86)

1. All of God's attributes and abilities were invested in Adam. (The Authority of the Believer IV; Tape #01-0304)

1. If you stood Adam upside God, they look just exactly alike....If you stood Jesus and Adam side-by-side, they would look and act and sound exactly alike....The image is that they look just alike, but the likeness is that they act alike and they are alike....All of God's attributes, all of God's authority, all of God's faith, all of God's ability was invested in that man. (Authority of the Believer IV, 1987, audiotape #01-0304, side 1)

1. The Spirit of God spoke to me, and He said Son, realize this Now follow me in this, don't let your tradition trip you up. He said Think this way. A twice-born man whipped Satan in his own domain. And I threw my Bible... I said What? He said A born-again man defeated Satan - the first-born of many brethren defeated him. He said You are the very image, and the very copy of that one. I said Goodness Gracious, saints alive. I began to see what had gone on in there, and I said Well you don? mean - You couldn't dare mean that I could have done the same thing? He said Oh yeah. If you'd had the knowledge of the Word of God that He did you could've done the same thing cause you're a re-born man too. (Substitution and Identification 1989, audio tape #00-0202, side 2)

1. God's reason for creating Adam was His desire to reproduce Himself. I mean a reproduction of Himself. And in the garden of Eden He did that. He was not a little like God. He was not almost like God. He was not subordinate to God even. And Adam was as much like God as you can get, Just the same as Jesus when He came into the earth, He said If you've seen Me, you've seen the Father. He wasn't a lot like God - He's God manifested in the flesh. And I want you to know something - Adam in the garden of Eden was God manifested in the flesh. (Following the Faith of Abraham 1, 1989, audio tape #01-3001, side 1)

1. Adam lost the innate ability to create at the fall. (What Happened From the Cross to the Throne, Tape #00-0303)

1. Don't be disturbed when people accuse you of thinking you're God.The more you get to be like Me, the more they're going to think that way of you. They crucified Me for claiming that I was God. But I didn't claim I was God; I just claimed I walked with Him and that He was in Me. Hallelujah. That's what you're doing. (Voice of Victory Vol. 15, No. 2, 2/87)

1. You have the same creative faith and ability on the inside of you that God used when he created the heavens and the earth. (Inner Image of the Covenant, side 2.)

1. Jesus is no longer the only begotten Son of God (Now We Are In Christ Jesus, 1980, p24)

Nature of faith:

1. Faith is God's source of power (Freedom From Fear, 1983. p12.)

1. Faith was the raw material substance that the Spirit of God used to form the universe. (Authority of the Believer II (1987, audiotape #01-0302, side 1.)

1. God did not create the world out of nothing, He used the Force of His Faith. (Spirit, Soul and Body, #01-0601, Tape #1)

1. Faith is a Force (like Starwars). (Spirit, Soul and Body, #01-0601, Tape #1)

1. The force of faith was controlling His (Jesus') ministry. (The Force of Faith, p9)

1. Faith is a power force, he claims. It is a tangible force. It is a conductive force. (The Force of Faith, 1989, p10)

1. Faith is a spiritual force....It is substance. Faith has the ability to effect natural substance. (Forces of the Recreated Human Spirit, 1982, p8)

1. The force of gravity...makes the law of gravity work...this force of faith...makes the laws of the spirit world function. (The Laws of Prosperity (Fort Worth: Kenneth Copeland Publications, 1974, 18-19.)

Nature of heaven:

1. Earth is a copy of the mother planet (Heaven). Heaven has a north and a south and an east and a west. Consequently, it must be a planet. (Spirit, Soul, and a Body 1 1985, audio tape #01-0601, side 1)

1. It's all a copy. It's a copy of home. It's a copy of the mother planet. Where God lives, He made a little one just like His and put us on it.(Following the Faith of Abraham 1 1989, audio tape #01-3001, side 1)

 

Permalink Reply by Seek on March 3, 2015 at 6:05am

None of this has been productive but only argument and some even fairly demeaning comments and therefore not good to continue and so the matter is no longer up for debate as it is so far off topic in any event.

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