All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
Some of the Scriptures that cause me to think that a Christian can walk away from God.
Many Christian's believe that once we are saved then we can't move away from God's salvation. There are many threads written about this. But it is some of these passages that cause to me think otherwise.
John 15
The Vine and the Branches
15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
Matthew 25
The Parable of the Bags of Gold
14 “Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his wealth to them. 15 To one he gave five bags of gold, to another two bags, and to another one bag,[a] each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey. 16 The man who had received five bags of gold went at once and put his money to work and gained five bags more. 17 So also, the one with two bags of gold gained two more. 18 But the man who had received one bag went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money.
19 “After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them. 20 The man who had received five bags of gold brought the other five. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you entrusted me with five bags of gold. See, I have gained five more.’
21 “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’
22 “The man with two bags of gold also came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you entrusted me with two bags of gold; see, I have gained two more.’
23 “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’
24 “Then the man who had received one bag of gold came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 So I was afraid and went out and hid your gold in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.’
26 “His master replied, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? 27 Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.
28 “‘So take the bag of gold from him and give it to the one who has ten bags. 29 For whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 30 And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Matthew 13
The Parable of the Sower
13 That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. 2 Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. 3 Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.”
18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”
Matthew 13
The Parable of the Weeds
24 Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’
28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.
“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’
29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Ananda Welikala on
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When I study the below verses, I take them literally.I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create EVIL, I the Lord DO ALL THESE THINGS. (Some say that God ALLOWS evil. If that's the case, still He is responsible for evil. Why? Because when He could have stopped it, He didn't).Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: [My Note: This v. includes Satan and demons and evil spirits because they come under principalities and powers].
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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The light of understanding I have received on these verses lies within the simple truth that God has created beings (angels and man) and God allows disobedience and resistance to His will by them and God uses all of it to His glory.
As I explained earlier, it doesn't mean God created sin or causes sin or condones it. The evil that created beings do is used by God for His purpose and plan. But the evil of sin wasn't created by God. God has designed punishment for sin and discipline for disobedience.
God allows the evil of sin and over rules it for good.
My husband works for a plant that makes special metals. Some of the metals go out to be turned into weapons and some go out to be turned into airplanes and so forth. God isn't creating weapons and airplanes; man is. God created man.
God's punishment and discipline of evil is severe. Some of it is so severe that God is said to be cruel, but that's an opinion of fallen man. We read in scripture of His judgments, famine, pestilence, and even war. These are the effects of sin. Disobedience and resistance to God has consequences.
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CALVIN Vs. ARMIN: (What I believe is underlined).
Calvinism holds to the total depravity of man while Arminianism holds to partial depravity. Calvinism’s doctrine of total depravity states that every aspect of humanity is corrupted by sin; therefore, human beings are unable to come to God on their own accord. [all are DEAD in sin, therefore unable to come to life by themselves. (My note: Dead ones have to be resrrected by some one else, and Btw, Jesus is the only human being who had the power to self-resurrect].
Partial depravity states that every aspect of humanity is tainted by sin, but not to the extent that human beings are unable to place faith in God of their own accord. Note: classical Arminianism rejects “partial depravity” and holds a view very close to Calvinistic “total depravity” (although the extent and meaning of that depravity are debated in Arminian circles). In general, Arminians believe there is an “intermediate” state between total depravity and salvation. In this state, made possible by prevenient grace, the sinner is being drawn to Christ and has the God-given ability to choose salvation.
Calvinism includes the belief that election is unconditional, while Arminianism believes in conditional election. Unconditional election is the view that God elects individuals to salvation based entirely on His will, not on anything inherently worthy in the individual. Conditional election states that God elects individuals to salvation based on His foreknowledge of who will believe in Christ unto salvation, thereby on the condition that the individual chooses God.
Calvinism sees the atonement as limited, while Arminianism sees it as unlimited. This is the most controversial of the five points. Limited atonement is the belief that Jesus only died for the elect. Unlimited atonement is the belief that Jesus died for all, but that His death is not effectual until a person receives Him by faith.
Calvinism includes the belief that God’s grace is irresistible, while Arminianism says that an individual can resist the grace of God. Irresistible grace argues that when God calls a person to salvation, that person will inevitably come to salvation. Resistible grace states that God calls all to salvation, but that many people resist and reject this call.
Calvinism holds to perseverance of the saints while Arminianism holds to conditional salvation. Perseverance of the saints refers to the concept that a person who is elected by God will persevere in faith and will not permanently deny Christ or turn away from Him. Conditional salvation is the view that a believer in Christ can, of his/her own free will, turn away from Christ and thereby lose salvation. Note - many Arminians deny "conditional salvation" and instead hold to "eternal security."
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I'd rather we stick to the topic at hand and not turn the discussion into Calvinism versus Arminianism. Here's a link to a good discussion about that here on the AAG forum http://www.allaboutgod.net/forum/topics/what-is-arminianism-and-1
Perhaps you will enjoy reading through it. May God bless you as you continue to learn and to seek His light of understanding.
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I'm sorry for rehashing. But I thought it's appropriate at this juncture!
To those who believe in losing thier salvation here's what I get from the w of G.Salvation is first of all is getting into the very presence of Infinitely Holy God, whenever it happens. Since All-powerful God will never allow anybody sinful to get into His presence, it is He who will make sure that nobody with even a minutest sin will get into heaven. Btw even Holy angels who rebelled in heaven were "kicked out" from God's presence because of thier one sin of rebellion. Rom. ch. 8:34-39 is a good passage to keep in mind!
Jude v.1 and v. 24 are key verses in this regard. At the moment of death every human being stops sinning. Ditto for those who get raptured. But the huge difference is this: Those who had trusted the Blood of Jesus Christ (the Sacrificial Lamb of God), to wash away thier sins (1 Jn 1:7) only have the benefit of the cleansing of thier sins, and thus entry into heaven. Those human beings who did not "apply the Blood" to thier hearts do not qualify to get into heaven. They will live eternally in hell. (Btw eternal life is for every human being because heaven and hell, both, are real places where human being will live forever).
Salvation is called ETERNAL Salvation. (If there was any chance, even a microscopic minute one, that Eternal Salvation could be lost, All-knowing God of Infinite foreknowledge, would never call it ETERNAL Salvation, Heb. 5:9)!
God is a Person of Eternity--eternity past and eternity future. When He made Adam and Eve, they were not made to be temporary human beings. Rom. 5: 12 teaches that DEATH came to the whole human race because of Adam's sin. Suppose Adam and Eve had not sinned then they would have lived for eternity in God's presence, but here on earth in Earthly Paradise. Since mankind was not made to live temporarily but eternally, mankind will go into eternal life, either in heaven or hell. Rev. 21 has it that God will come down to live in earth one day and it will be with human beings for ever and ever.
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Permalink Reply by Seek on
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If what you're saying is that we will apply the blood and never sin again then I disagree. But I'm really notsure what you are saying. But we are saved only by what Jesus did for us simply by believing He was God's Son and came to die for us and was raised again.
Romans 10:13
For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Romans 10:9
Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Acts 2:21
And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’
Titus 3:5
He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
1 John 3:20
For whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.
Every verse says salvation is from God (in the form of Christ) to all who believe (not perfect as we are made perfect through belief in Christ) who weighs our hearts (as Paul asked why he did what he didn't want to do since his heart was new and his mind renewed yet he was still sinful flesh and may not have always acted appropriately) and Christ became the final sacrifice for sin.
In the O.T., sacrifices were made regularly for forgiveness...meaning people needed forgiveness for sin, they knew it, yet they still had a propensity to sin even though they tried not to and didn't want to; therefore they sacrificed animals again and again. Christ was the sacrifice to cleanse us from unrighteousness...not just past unrighteousness.
The fourth Beatitude in Matthew 5:6 says “Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled”. God desires righteousness yet understands that always being righteous is hard to do. This is why in Job 15:14, Job asked “What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?”. Paul describes the reason why in Romans 7:14-24:
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
If we should slip and sin, not trying to or excusing it, but being genuinely remorseful for it, then we are not continuing in sin. We're supposed to bring our bodies into subjection. We only do this by prayer and mind renewal. Jesus would not have mentioned to renew our minds if our minds became perfect simply by believing.
If we are not renewing our minds, or our hearts (which even we cannot know) are wrong, or we're continuing in sin and not condemned by it, then we don't belong to Him. We never truly repented.
1 John 2:1-2
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
pro·pi·ti·a·tion (prəˌpiSHēˈāSHən)
the action of propitiating or appeasing a god, spirit, or person.
Propitiation means the turning away of wrath by an offering.
Christ turned away God's wrath by taking all our sins upon Himself.
If we truly believe we will want to do right. We won't always succeed until our deliverance "from the body of this death".
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Just read a verse that adds to this:
For the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes each one he accepts as his child. Hebrews 12:6
God doesn't punish us unless there is something sinful we are doing. And if He punishes us, it is because He's accepted us as His child.. a son or daughter of Christ.
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Most people believe that suffering is because of their sins. My Bible says that suffering is a part of life for all human beings. Humans suffer because of the FALL of Adam and Eve into sin. The Creator God said that the whole WORLD is cursed by Him for what they did. Thus, suffering is part of life, even for other creatures of God. (The whole WORLD includes all creatures that God made).
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There is suffering because of the fall but there is also discipline. If there is an area in your life needing change, you will find yourself in similar situations that you wish you didn't have to deal with, repeatedly. Each time, we have an opportunity to respond differently.
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Very true! Almighty, All-knowing Creator God a.k.a. Jesus Christ treats us just like a LOVING and KIND human father treats his children. Such fathers don't punish because of ANGER. They punish because they want to correct the behavior of their children.
Hebrews 12: 5 "...And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. 11Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby."
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1st John 1:7 states that the Blood of Jesus Christ SHED ON CALVARY'S CROSS cleanses the repentant sinner from all sins.
1st Jn. 1:8 and 10 state that nobody is without sin and that includes every POPE that ever lived and will live in the future. (This is of course IN SPITE of RC dogma where it says that POPES are without sin so that they qualify to FORGIVE sins of RC people.
1st Jn 1:9 is there for every human being to APPLY to themselves when they sin and also to QUALIFY for entry into heaven to those who are still not born again by the GOSPEL of Salvation. (1st Cor. 15: 1-4).
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1st John 1:7 by stating that the Blood of Jesus CLEANSES us from sins, means that it keeps on cleansing US from OUR sins. It means that the CLEANSING is needed daily. If we have been totally and completely CLEANSED once for all, then no more cleansing is needed. I need daily cleansing like a daily body wash before going to bed for the day. Btw the Apostle John INCLUDED himself by using the word "we." Apostle Paul's words towards the end of Romans 7 should not be neglected in this regard!
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