All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
So confusing
Hi ,
I wonder if all this TV evangelism and internet is possibly able to be damaging to ones faith as well as inspiring.
This morning ive read some things about Billy Graham and Joyce Meyer that troubles me so deeply and makes me wonder who can I trust.
Billy Graham:
ON HOMOSEXUALITY
"I find it is emotional, with strong arguments on both sides of the issue. I intend to stay out of national and local politics while here. God loves all people whatever their ethnic or political background or their social orientation.”
ON ABORTION
"... there is a Christian position, I think”
"But there are occasions when abortion is the only alternative."
ON HOMOSEXUALITY AND ABORTION
"I don't get involved in the abortion thing. I agree with the Pope, whom I know well, on abortion. But I just don't take extreme positions. I preach to unite people. There is a great division in the religious community today. God loves the homosexual as much as anyone else. I think homosexuality is a sin, but no greater than idolatry and adultery. In my judgment, it's not that big."
ON BAPTISM
"I do believe that something happens at the baptism of an infant... we cannot fully understand the mysteries of God, but I believe that a miracle can happen in these children so that they are regenerated, that is, made Christian, through infant baptism."
ON SALVATION
"I used to think that pagans in far-off countries were lost -- were going to hell -- if they did not have the Gospel of Jesus Christ preached to them. I no longer believe that. ... I believe there are other ways of recognizing the existence of God -- through nature, for instance -- and plenty of other opportunities, therefore, of saying yes to God."
ON HELL
"The only thing I could say for sure is that hell means separation from God. We are separated from His light, from His fellowship. That is going to hell. When it comes to a literal fire, I don't preach it because I'm not sure about it. When the Scripture uses fire concerning hell, that is possibly an illustration of how terrible it's going to be -- not fire but something worse, a thirst for God that cannot be quenched."
ON WHAT HEAVEN WILL BE LIKE
“It's going to be like paradise. It'll be the -- everything that you ever wanted for happiness will be there. People say that the Bible teaches there's no sex in Heaven. If sex is necessary for our happiness and fulfillment, it'll be there. And then, if certain other things that we think are pleasurable will -- it'll be there.”
Joyce Meyer:
“I’m going to tell you something folks, I didn’t stop sinning until I finally got it through my thick head I wasn’t a sinner anymore. And the religious world thinks that’s heresy and they want to hang you for it. But the Bible says that I’m righteous and I can’t be righteous and be a sinner at the same time.”“Now whether you like it or not, whether you want to admit it or not, whether you want to operate on it or not, you are made the righteousness of God in Jesus Christ. Most people who go to denominational churches never ever hear that! They never hear it! Never! All I was ever taught to say was, ‘I’m a poor, miserable sinner.’ I am not poor, I am not miserable and I am not a sinner. That is a lie from the pit of hell. That is what I was and if I still am then Jesus died in vain. Amen?” (Joyce Meyer, “What Happened from the Cross to The Throne?” audio)
My mother became a Christian during a Billy Graham concert many years ago. She has lived a Christian life ever since, witnessing, going to Church reading her bible daily. but I doubt she has ever 'looked into things as I have been doing, for one she doesn't have internet, or satellite TV. She is innocent to the world as it were, in a way I would like that faith' but...
Is it wrong to want to understand, I love theology, I love discussion and looking into things deeply. But where does one draw the line, please help me understand, also I get the idea that it is not my place to judge but I do feel anger at false prophets particularly , when they are taking money from poor people.
The bible does tell me the answer,
Matthew 7 1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
and it tells me another answer too:
“If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Hello Lucy,
Thank you for sharing your questions and concerns.
When dealing with accusations or simply comments about a beloved family member as Billy G. is, one must remember to exercise 1 Timothy 5:19, which states:
Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses.Many in the world look to discredit a well known and love Christian man, so we have to examine the source of the information being granted and we must also look for the context in which the statements were made. We have all witness accusations being made against someone where their statements are ripped from the context and made to say, at times very much the opposite of what the speaker or writer meant to convey. Once we have done our homework and we find that some statements are not out of context, but are direct quotes, we then pray for wisdom on how to proceed, we also pray for our brother and continue to love them and trust that God will finish what He started in them. If the comments are very damaging, we then must follow God's instructions to us in the word. At times He may want us to contend for the truth in various ways.
Billy and Joyce Love God, I think we can all agree with that as well as the fact that we are all works in progress. So let us pray for them. There are many false teachers and preachers in the world today, but Billy and Joyce are not among them. I do not agree with Billy, Joyce and many other members of Christ's family in every doctrine, but they remain my beloved family.
There is a time to divide over our doctrinal differences and that is when a person’s is departing from the primary/fundamental doctrines of Christianity. Even then, we try all we can to reach those who have fallen for false doctrine vigorously, until God tells us to let them be.
>>Is it wrong to want to understand, I love theology, I love discussion and looking into things deeply.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with examining all things, matter of fact the word of God tells us to do so.
>>But where does one draw the line, please help me understand
Do not allow your pursue of doctrinal purity to take the place of relationship with God. If you are spending more time examine things than studying the word to know God more, to Know Him more, than you want to realign to the correct intent.
>>I get the idea that it is not my place to judge but I do feel anger at false prophets particularly , when they are taking money from poor people.
This is call righteous judgment/anger. See this discussion: Correcting one another, is it scriptural? Are we called to Judge?
http://www.allaboutgod.net/forum/topics/correcting-one-another-is-it
It is perfectly ok to judge as long as we do not do it the wrong way, the way the word says it's wrong to do.
Blessings beloved
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Permalink Reply by LucyP on
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Hey,
Thanks for that David, yes, I agree with you: Many in the world look to discredit a well known and loved Christian man,
It seems all the 'popular' preachers have people who are ready to criticize and claim they are false prophets. My original post questions how the internet can damage one's faith by putting these suggestions but I admit I am guilty of falling for this, and allowing them to cast these doubts in my mind. I realize it is not the internet per say but my sinful willingness to read such things.
I pray that Jesus grants me peace, these things are not my worries, you are right David: reading Gods word and growing with him are/should be my priorities right now.
1 Peter 5:7 Give all your worries and cares to God, for he cares about you.
Incidentally, I have since learned that the tape which Joyce Meyer announced she was without sin, has since been removed from ministry. I guess this shows us that God will 'sort it out'. As you say: we also pray for our brother and continue to love them and trust that God will finish what He started in them.
We are blessed to have Joyce and Billy, as they are powerful in bringing people to Jesus. And this must always be a good thing, indeed I was initially inspired to come back to Jesus by a relative newcomer to TV ministry, Matt Pitt. A young server of the Lord who is a 'baby preacher' compared to the likes of Billy and Joyce.
My mum is the witness I need, through Billy Graham Jesus reached my mother many years ago and gave me a teacher right there, through my life. How blessed am I?
Just one last thing, my bible reading today read...
1 Corinthians 1
19 For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.
I think God's telling me here not to try to understand everything, but instead trust, as earthly intelligence will not be able to fulfill our questions, of course it won't, this is where faith comes from.
Thanks for also helping me understand David.
Gods blessings
Lucy
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Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on
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Hi Lucy,
I don't agree with what a lot of televangelists say, but sometimes that is because I didn't hear all that they said in regard to a certain position. I would like to comment on what you posted from Joyce Meyer though.
Joyce Meyer:
“I’m going to tell you something folks, I didn’t stop sinning until I finally got it through my thick head I wasn’t a sinner anymore.
WE have to realize that as Christians, our sins aren't counted against us. Jesus died for those sins, and He only died once. When we accepted Christ, we accepted that forgiveness. Yes we sin, no that isn't our new nature.
And the religious world thinks that’s heresy and they want to hang you for it. But the Bible says that I’m righteous and I can’t be righteous and be a sinner at the same time.”
We are growing in our righteousness everyday through faith and our righteousness will be fully realized at our home-going.
“Now whether you like it or not, whether you want to admit it or not, whether you want to operate on it or not, you are made the righteousness of God in Jesus Christ.
Through faith
Most people who go to denominational churches never ever hear that! They never hear it! Never!
I hear this from the pulpit as well.
All I was ever taught to say was, ‘I’m a poor, miserable sinner.’ I am not poor, I am not miserable and I am not a sinner. That is a lie from the pit of hell. That is what I was and if I still am then Jesus died in vain. Amen?” (Joyce Meyer, “What Happened from the Cross to The Throne?” audio)
I would say that Joyce is trying to say to us that if we are in Christ, we need to concentrate our minds on Him, following what He did.
Sorry, this is so small but I can't figure how to increase the text size.
Blessings,
Rita
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Thank you Rita, that is very interesting,
I can see what you mean, but I still think it was very wrong to say we are not sinners, surely that's the very base of our faith, that we are, and I think that someone of such enormous influence should be scripturally correct on important matters as this.
I John. 1:8-10
8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.
God bless
Lucy
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Permalink Reply by Carla on
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Hi Lucy,
I can see how this can be confusing.. I agree with what David and Rita have written.
Regarding Joyce's comment... This scripture comes to mind:
This means that anyone who belongs to Christ has become a new person. The old life is gone; a new life has begun! 2 Cor 5:17
It is Christ's Righteousness we wear.. I think she is teaching that when we do overtly sin we are slandering the name of Jesus...so stop sinning. When we sin, we are covered by Grace... but don't sin knowing that, because we will take God's Grace for granted...and abuse His perfect gift of Grace. In a nutshell, i think she's saying.. God has given you the perfection of Jesus...start living in it...He will give you the power to do so.. However, when you do sin.. God's Grace will cover you for that.. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ.
I love Billy Graham... I have his life story on DVD.. all leaders need to be prayed for. I disagree with what he supposedly said above.. I just really wonder about the context of the words said.. Were the words twisted?
Blessings and Love in Christ, Carla
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Hey Carla , yes I have been reading and now I do get what Joyce was getting at ,
1 John 2:2
2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
In fact, I was reading these very words in my Bible reading just these minutes past and God said get up to your PC and show that you now understand, right what you have written now I've shown you, and so I did and you had also written Carla.
God bless my brothers and sisters in Jesus for helping and guiding me, I do so appreciate it.
Thank you.
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Hello beloved Carla, I am back girl, so be afraid, be very afraid hahaha hahaha
Sis Lucy, You have a beautiful attitude. There are few things more beautiful than a teachable attitude. Press on beloved.
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:-) .. Love ya bro Davey.. You have to tell us all about married life.. good to have you back as much as you can.. I understand, I haven't been around much either.. :-)
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Carla, I'm watching Billys life story right now, I am overwhelmed with what he has achieved through Jesus, his bravery, and love is simply awe inspiring. Thank God for him. .
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Lucy,
Regarding Billy Graham...his answers are good for attempting to placate all sides but some of them are not biblical. Of course without the whole conversation, we can't completely understand all the answers. I would not adopt a position based on any of his comments listed here.
Blessings,
Rita
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