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Should women represent top-rank positions in churches?
Please respond to this in kindness. I'm obviously a woman and do not subscribe to chauvinistic ideology. However, I DO believe the Bible reveals a natural order that signifies God's original intention and purpose for His created.
Happy discussing! ;)
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Glenda -
Are you asking: Is it scriptural, women in Ministry as Pastors and Elders? If that is the question. Here are my biblical conclusions, but there is a twist i will get to later, if we get there without killing ourselves due to the delicate nature of this question. hahaha I am sure we will do this in a joyful manner that Glorifies the Lord. :)
1 Tim. 2:12-13, "But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve."
Titus 1:4, "For this reason I left you in Crete, that you might set in order what remains, and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, 6 namely, if any man be above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion."
The verses clearly teach a woman is not to teach or exercise authority over a man because Adam was created first, thereby making it a doctrinal mandate, not a cultural one. In the second verse, Paul tells Titus to appoint men as elders. So, we can clearly see that the Bible teaches it is the man who are to be an authority in the Church. But, in order to justify having women be in authority and teaching men, the texts are deconstructed and reinterpreted. In the case of first Timothy "a woman" means a "wife of a particular man." Or, Adam being created first means that "he is more responsible for his sin than Eve." Or, that "husband of one wife" really is a phrase used of women as well.
How do we get around such mandates and have women Pastors?
The issue of women pastors is not among the essential doctrines category, so we should not divide over it.
The term "diakonos" is used of an office with special requirements that women cannot meet. "Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain," (1 Tim. 3:8). And, "Let deacons be husbands of only one wife [lit. one woman man'] and good managers of their children and their own households," (1 Tim. 3:12). See also Phil. 1:1.
There were deaconesses, so there can be female elders and pastors, some say?
First of all, the word "deacon" διάκονος (diakonos) and its cognates occur 31 times in the NT and is used in many different ways. Paul calls himself a minister (diakonos) of the gospel in Col. 1:23, 25. Paul went to Jerusalem to serve (diakonos) the saints, (Rom. 15:25). Mary spoke to the servants (diakonos) at the wedding in Cana (John 2:5). It is used of serving tables (Luke 17:8 and Acts 6:2). Jesus came not to be served, but to serve (diakonos), (Mark 10:45). The government is called a minister (diakonos) of God (Rom. 13:4). Tychicus is a minister (diakonos) of the Lord (Col. 4:7) as is Timotheus (1 Thess. 3:2).
Rom. 16:1 says, "I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant (diakonos) of the church which is at Cenchrea." Many argue that since Pheobe is called a deacon, then it means women are eligible to hold the formal office of deacon. But this is not conclusive at all. Phoebe is simply called a servant (diakonon) which can be rendered differently in different Bibles: "minister" (Darby, YLT), "servant" (ASV, ESV, HCSB, ISV, KJV, NASB, NIV, NKJV), "helper" (NCV), "deacon" (NLT, NRSV), and "deaconess" (RSV).
I have obviously intertwine my thoughts with the thoughts of others of the subject and at this point I can't remember where I got what some stuff I am quoting from, but I have research the topic extensively and have strong arguments for both sides of the fence. It is not my desire to plagiarize and apologize for not quoting the source for some of the inserts.
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Permalink Reply by Ginnybee on
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Yes, Dave... that was my question. You've offered an impressive answer here. Very interesting, plagiarizer! hehe, jus kiddin.
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Why so much 'maleness' in the Bible?
God the Father is referred to in the masculine. Jesus was a man, and still is (Col. 2:9; 1 Tim. 2:5). The Holy Spirit is referred to as "he" (John 14:17). The archangels Michael and Gabriel are referred to in the masculine as is Satan. Adam was given dominion and the charge to cultivate and keep the Garden, whereas Eve was not. Noah was used by God to save a remnant of people. God called Abraham out of the Ur of the Chaldees. God commissioned Moses to lead his people, then he called Joshua to lead them. Isaac was a type of Christ and ancestor of Jesus. God anointed David to be King and through him to produce the Messiah. Then there are the prophets Isaiah, Daniel, Hezekiah, et. al., mighty men of God. In the New Testament we have John the Baptist, Peter, John, and Paul, all men of God, anointed, and used of the Lord. In fact, all of the 12 disciples were men.
Of course, we cannot forget the women. Eve was the first woman and the source of humanity via her womb. Ruth, the Moabitess, became an ancestor of King David. Esther risked her life to save the Jews. Rebecca, the wife of Isaac, bore Jacob and Esau. Elizabeth bore John the Baptist. Mary gave birth to the Messiah. Women are important, but God's major actions, major leaders, are men.
Why didn't Jesus call any women to be among the 12 disciples? Why only men? Why did God become flesh in the form of a man and not a woman? Why did God use people like Noah, Moses, Abraham, and David to accomplish his magnificent will during Old Testament times?
If the maleness in the Bible is nothing more than a reflection of patriarchal social structures, then we could throw away the inspiration of Scripture since we would be saying that patriarchal patterns in the Bible are due to society and not God who works all things after the Council of his will (Eph. 1:11).
Or, perhaps it is coincidental that God worked through the sinful conditions of this world where oppressive men happened to dominate culture. Again, if that is so, doesn't God have the ability to work with women and through women in spite of the men being dominant? Of course he does, yet he chose men. Why?
http://www.carm.org/why-section-women-ministry
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Permalink Reply by Sharon Theresa Theil on
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Women are important, but God's major actions, major leaders, are men.
On what planet? If you really believe this you have got to spend more time with Sacred Scripture!
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Sharon,
On planet Earth my sister hahahha so tell me, what bothers you about that statement, or are you from Venus, you know they say woman are from Venus. :) J/K
We all need to spend more time in the word and not to feel that we have done our part and are good people and pleasing to God, 'cause we did our chore, but to enjoy fellowship with God and grow in His grace, wisdom and love.
Tell me sis, apart from your Catechism what has the Holy Spirit enlighten you to understand without outside sources telling you what scripture means. Can you meditate on scripture and set aside church dogma which dictates to you what you should think. Has the Holy Spirit guided you to all truth in all subjects pertaining to God and Godliness or have you been indoctrinated only?
We should all be doing a lot more studying. This is not a competition about males vs. females, is about establishing scripturally who God has chosen throughout history to lead His people.
I am very aware that our Messiah was born of a woman so we understand as we stated many times in this conversation that men are not better than woman, we simply have different roles/responsabilities.
Blessings to you Sharon
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Women are important, but God's major actions, major leaders, are men.
David,
Words like 'but' can seem to mitigate what ever comes before the but...example, 'I don't mean to be rude but,..." spoken before someone is rude, or "He seemed like a nice guy but,...." to explain why a girl has no intention of going out with that guy again.
When you wrote, "Women are important, but..." I took it as meaning that you considered women's role in the Bible, and in God's Plan, to be less important then men's role.
I realize now that that is not what you meant. Sorry.
However, you do realize that women preformed plenty of 'major actions' in the development of God's Plan of Salvation, right?
Sharon.
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Sharon -
>However, you do realize that women preformed plenty of 'major actions' in the development of God's Plan of Salvation, right?
The article i provided above that made the statement is not my article. I provided the website where it can be found at the bottom of that post.
the article states the following:
"Of course, we cannot forget the women. Eve was the first woman and the source of humanity via her womb. Ruth, the Moabitess, became an ancestor of King David. Esther risked her life to save the Jews. Rebecca, the wife of Isaac, bore Jacob and Esau. Elizabeth bore John the Baptist. Mary gave birth to the Messiah. Women are important, but God's major actions, major leaders, are men."
Woman are just as valuable in the kingdome as men. We simply have different God given responsabilities.
Blessings.
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:D I know, I know, but hey.. i like a good discussion where I can benefit from others' knowledge. Looking forward to that info., Linda.
blessings to you
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Carla,
Cute kids!:)
Sharon.
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Permalink Reply by Carla on
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Thanks Sharon.. yes they are cute (most of the time--other times..not so much).. ;-)
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1 Tim. 2:13 "For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve."
Paul tells us that the reason women are not to teach or exercise authority over men in the church is because Adam was created first, then Eve. The statement clearly removes the previous verse (v. 12) from being culturally motivated. Paul equates the issue of authority with the created order.
It is in the created order, and in the fall of Adam and Eve, that the curse is given to Eve. "To the woman He said, “I will greatly multiply your pain in childbirth. In pain you shall bring forth children; yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you,” (Gen. 3:16). The word "desire" is "teshookaw". It is used only one other time in the Pentateuch in Gen. 4:7.
Gen. 4:7, “If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.”
Notice that the word "desire" in Gen. 4:7 speaks of the desire of sin to control.
We see that Eve's desire shall be for her husband, but it is he that will rule over her. It would seem that the context is dealing with the desire of the woman to be in control.
Ok that should be enough info to get this party started :)
All Kidding aside - The Word of God is the word of God, able to cut through the soul and Spirit. Powerful and to be respected, feared and Loved. So please don't think in all my clowning I forget I am talking about God. I am just a goofball, but that don't mean I take the word of God lightly you all. Ok - ok :)
Love you family!
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