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Science and the evolution of Christianity - scope for understanding?
The Scopes Trial—formally known as The State of Tennessee v. John Thomas Scopes and informally known as the Scopes Monkey Trial—was a landmark American legal case in 1925 in which high school science teacher, John Scopes, was accused of violating Tennessee's Butler Act which made it unlawful to teach evolution.[1]
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Science v Christianity - Certainly seemed to be the case (literally) in the above mentioned Scopes trial - which effectively was about the doctrine of human origin and evolution. Indeed there were two opposing sides - the scientific and Christian communities, at least that was the public view. The Christian community rejected scientists account of evolution claiming it was unbiblical. Science was wrong!
Is science wrong though? I do not believe it is.
It is some of the scientists who are wrong in their speculations. But I also believe that some in the Christian community should not discount evolution - as a process used by God. I've heard many Christians say "I don't believe in evolution", but there are valid scientific claims in Darwin's theory of evolution; some aspects of his theory were/are obviously speculative.
The creation is another issue that seemingly separates science and Christianity - how old is the universe? Is there a designer? Who created God? etc etc
It is not a case of science v Christianity - rather isn't it a case of science for Christianity? There should be scope for understanding between both communities I believe.
After all - science is only revealing what God has created.
Any thoughts on this?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Dean,
Yet, God established time, set man in the timeline and spoke to man in terms of time.
Lord Bless,
LT
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Permalink Reply by dean burrows on
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absolutely giving man an understanding. As we allow it and as The Lord shows us that understanding increases.
I am simply pointing out that we understand what we do according to our present understanding and as we enter the Heavans we may find a total different understanding.
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We will surely be surprised by many things at that time.
Lord Bless,
LT
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I truely believe so. I know when I try to work things out I tend to box up what God is doing. Sometimes I forget He is the provider of all.. He provides our food our health our abilities and yes He provided us with time that we may have a measurement for our works. I wonder if we should actually be using that same measure for His. Or would we be more correct to understand that He provides in His own time.
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Permalink Reply by Bible-Talk on
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Thanks LT - I really do find discussion on this issue intriguing.
My understanding of Genesis 1:14 is (one of the reasons) that God created the sun and the moon was for man to establish time. God is not governed by time, however man is.
The issue about the rest on the seventh day as a standard/pattern sounds good. In the context of the other days (creation) I wanted to try and understand duration - how long was the "rest" for?
I think the issue about the simple reading of scripture for me can be problematic in some cases. For example there are different translations of words in the OT and NT in different versions of the bible. In some bibles, some words have been mistranslated altogether. Some words in scripture can have multiple variations in intention, meaning and use - a good example is indeed of the Hebrew word "yom" which can be used in the context of hours, days, years and an unspecified period of time. I am finding it very helpful to read up on what experts in the Hebrew language say about "yom" in the creation account.
Isn't it also possible that God could have required significantly much less than a millisecond to create man/creation? Where did this kind of measurement come from? Does the "size" of God depend on our understanding of time? I have to say that I believe not. What is the difference between 1 second and 1 billion years to God? Does'nt God live outside of time? He could have chosen six (24 hour) day/yom periods or six (billion year) day/yom periods could'nt He? God did/does not need a time limit did/does He? God is so much more than we can truly understand.
I agree that God is an artist and enjoyed each part of His creation, in fact I believe that God loved what he was creating - it seems that to Him, man was a special creation made in Gods image .... and God has a lot of time for man.
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Desmond,
Thanks LT - I really do find discussion on this issue
intriguing.I always enjoy discussing issues when the parties remain civil and stay on topic. I commend you for that.
My understanding of Genesis 1:14 is (one of the reasons)
that God created the sun and the moon was for man to establish time. God is not
governed by time, however man is.Though God is not governed by time He has chosen to establish time and relate to His creation in time. There are many examples of this, but I will show only two. God informed the captives in Babylon that their captivity would be for 70 years. Jesus declared that He would rise on the third day. Praise God that it wasn’t the third period of some extended time rather than literal days.
The issue about the rest on the seventh day as a
standard/pattern sounds good. In the context of the other days (creation) I
wanted to try and understand duration - how long was the "rest" for?My answer is one day, yet we know that creation was finished. This rest, unnecessary to God, was illustrative to us. We know that even in this illustration of rest by God that He held the universe and all that is in it together during that day as well. Thus, He refrained from creating, but still worked.
I think the issue about the simple reading of scripture
for me can be problematic in some cases. For example there are different
translations of words in the OT and NT in different versions of the bible. In
some bibles, some words have been mistranslated altogether. Some words in
scripture can have multiple variations in intention, meaning and use - a good
example is indeed of the Hebrew word "yom" which can be used in the
context of hours, days, years and an unspecified period of time. I am finding
it very helpful to read up on what experts in the Hebrew language say about
"yom" in the creation account.Two points in response to this portion. 1) Find a credible version of the Bible that uses some other marker for time instead of day. 2) Shall we believe the language experts of today looking back 3500 or so years to render a meaning on the text or should we trust in the language experts of the day who recognized that this meant a literal day? History reveals that the Jews and the early church believed it to be literal days.
Isn’t it also possible that God could have required
significantly much less than a millisecond to create man/creation? Where did
this kind of measurement come from? Does the “size” of God depend on our
understanding of time? I have to say that I believe not. What is the difference
between 1 second and 1 billion years to God? Does’nt God live outside of time?
He could have chosen six (24 hour) day/yom periods or six (billion year)
day/yom periods could’nt He? God did/does not need a time limit did/does He?
God is so much more than we can truly understand.Of course God could have chosen less time than a millisecond or more time, but He chose to reveal the time He took. Let’s take another look at the scenario. The term “yom” is constrained by context to mean a day. The inclusion of evening and morning, as David stated, fixes this as one day.
I agree that God is an artist and enjoyed each part of
His creation, in fact I believe that God loved what he was creating - it seems
that to Him, man was a special creation made in Gods image .... and God has a
lot of time for man.God surely loves man and has taken special care of Him, including providing the necessary sacrifical lamb, the Lamb of God.
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Hi LT - first of all apologies for the delayed response - I have been popping in and out of AAG very briefly due to a surge of other activities.
I appreciate your commendation and I really have people like you to thank for setting the example.
Indeed we should praise God for the day of Jesus' resurrection and be grateful for the year of His favour as we look forward to the day of the Lord.
Just a quick thought about duration of the seventh day - the absence (of mention) of evening and of morning at the end of the day .... any thoughts on this?
I would appreciate any recommendation of a credible version of the bible (?).
I would like to follow up some more about the interpretation of the word "yom" but in a following post as I see you have added a couple more.
Amen to the last comment - that is the essence of scripture. I love the acronym (G.O.S.P.E.L) you used - is that yours and if so may I use it with others?
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Desmond,
Just a quick thought about duration of the seventh day - the absence (of mention) of evening and of morning at the end of the day .... any thoughts on this?
Days one through six detailed (what God determined to reveal) each full day and closed that day by stating that there was evening and morning on each day. Day one was completed and this set up what was to be revealed on day two. Day two was completed and this set up what was to be revealed on day three and so on. Day seven was the day God rested and there was no need to close the day and prepare for day eight as the series of creation was no complete.
I would appreciate any recommendation of a credible version of the bible (?).
Any version that has followed proper translation rules and were guided by a team to ensure that more than one set of eyes would be involved in the process. I like four versions over the rest, but will not get into a debate (or allow a debate on AAG regarding versions). I like KJV, NASB, ESV and NIV. Some will argue that these versions vary from one another. This is true, but only in certain areas and in small amount. These areas usually deal with difficult words or text to understand and translate. The argument is that if one reads it on the original language that they would get a better understanding. This actually is false. It is false because that is exactly what these people did and this is how they came up with the current translation. Thus if you had 100 trained people read the bible in the original language you will find variances in some of the same areas, but none of these areas change the basic and overall meaning of God’s Word. Thus, to be clear, God’s Word is not in error, but man’s knowledge is limited.
I am reading an old book that has been brought into modern English. In the back of the book there is an appendix for words that have changed their meaning or where no meaning is known. Languages are not static, but change over a period of time and thus some of the words have to be determined by context.
Amen to the last comment - that is the essence of scripture. I love the acronym (G.O.S.P.E.L) you used - is that yours and if so may I use it with others?
I assume you mean God Offers Salvation Providing Eternal Life. I don’t know if anyone else ever said it, but It was something that came to my mind and you are free to use it.
Lord Bless,
LT
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I believe in 6 literal days of creation. After all, how long does it take to say "Let there be light"?
Another thought about the word day, having nothing to do with creation but every thing to do with Christ's return. We all know that we're living in the end time. That end times could stretch out to be hundreds of years.
My thought is this.....A day to God is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day.
Christ was resurrected early on the third day. How long has it been since Christ was crucified? Approximately 2000 years or 2 days by God's standard. The third day is fixing to start very soon. Therefore, I believe we are much closer to the end times than hundreds of years. In fact we're getting very near to "early on the third day...".
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It's interesting Rita - it seems that the time involved in the creation account and the proximity of the end days differ because of the understanding of the intended use of the word "day" or "yom" in Hebrew. I did share in a reply to LT's post in this discussion a couple of thoughts that other believers had in questioning the 6 literal days - would you perhaps have a read? It's great sharing thoughts - thanks for contributing.
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Desmond,
Christ actually spoke the world into existence and then everything in order to how it should have been created. He then created man. He actually made him from clay but...what makes one think that it should have taken over 24 hours? Christ hung the earth and all the planets exactly right so they would continue to hang in the heavens and would rotate as they should. They didn't need the sun, moon, stars to make the earth rotate. (There was actually light in the world before the creation of the sun, moon and stars.) I understand what you are saying, but....I can't agree with you once I give thought to the fact that God created everything. When God rested, it was finished.
Creation was complete.
Man can't create anything. There is nothing created outside what God created. Man strives to invent but he must use things that God already created in the 6 days of creation. He created everything mature. Adam and Eve were mature, the animal were mature, the trees and vegetation was mature. Why wouldn't the earth be mature?
People strive so hard to find errors in God's Word and there really aren't any errors. God has never done anything incorrectly, as man frequently makes a habit of doing.
Be blessed as you study and believe God in His perfection.
Rita
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