SATURDAY OR SUNDAY WORSHIP - WHICH IS RIGHT?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Rod Askew on September 25, 2010 at 9:52pm

Roy,

I must be missing something.
When did Christ ever break the Sabbath.
He upheld the Sabbath and merely pointed out to the Pharisees and Sadducees that not everything was disallowed because of the Sabbath, such as saving one of your animals or picking some grain to feed yourself.
No where does it say he went about breaking the Sabbath.

I'm sorry but to say that we don't have to keep God's commandments because we are under grace is just hogwash, as you Americans put it.
God gave 10 commandments.
Which ones don't you want to keep?
Please tell me.
I'll tell you which ones you don't want to keep.
Number 4. The Sabbath.
For this you blow it off and say, we are under grace and don't have to do that anymore.
Which of the other 9 commandments don't you keep, Roy.
Please, I would love to know.
Blessings
Rod

Permalink Reply by JB on September 25, 2010 at 10:56pm

Hey Roy! Knowing you to be a man that preaches Grace and I also try to live my life by that grace, But I wonder just how many of us really understands “Grace” and “Righteousness” What it is and what it does for us and how it is operating in our lives today? Though the law was nailed to His Cross, indicating the fulfillment of the law, not that they were done away with, because those same laws that were written on paper, are now written on our hearts, and by the grace of God, we don’t have to go to the written law to see if it is permissible to do this or that, but it is by the “Grace” of God we know within ourselves what is right and wrong. So those laws and the ten Commandments now become our personality, or our nature. We don’t go against our nature any more.
And we are sinning when we do!
So the way I see it: is a dog a dog because he wags his tail? or does he wag his tail because he is a dog?
Are we Christians because we keep the law or the ten Commandments, or do we keep the law and the Commandments because we are Christians? We walk by faith, not by sight. Or by keeping a set of rules and regulations, trying to be Holy!
[ Emphasis Mine]
In Isaiah 58:13 (KJV)
13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt “honour him“, not doing “thine own ways“, nor finding thine “own pleasure“, nor “speaking thine own words“

These four things mentioned above, is an every day practice for the Christian, and not to be practiced just on Sat., or Sun.

Colossians 2:16-17 (KJV)
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


Mark 2:26-28 (KJV)
26 How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?
27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

1 Timothy 1:8-11 (KJV)
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

So people think that those laws were written for us; ‘The righteous’ When indeed they were written for the ungodly or the sinner. Not us.
Joe

Permalink Reply by Rod Askew on September 25, 2010 at 10:06pm

David

Yoiu have replied with the words of Man./
I am talking about the words of God.
Not mans interpretations .

Which of the 10 commandments are we throwing away.
I am not talikng about the entire Levitical law of sacrifices etc.
Just the 10 commandments.

It is only the Sabbath that man has a problem with and won't honour.
My question to Roy is , WHY?
Blessings
Rod

Good to be back, hey.

Permalink Reply by Ron Payne on September 25, 2010 at 10:40pm

Hi Guys,

Let's continue to keep it cool as requested by LT our Adminisitrator.
Remember this is an intellectual discussion and not a heart problem

Having asked the question regarding which day is the day we should spend together in worship, we seem to have established that there are two strains of thought..... Now instead of knocking which of the two days is important. Let us turn our thoughts and answers on the following words of Paul:

"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." Col 2:14-17

Ron

Permalink Reply by RoyW on September 26, 2010 at 2:04am

Whew!

Yes, yes, yes. I rose from my sleep to stop some of you from falling off of that steep cliff to attempt to earn your relationship with God by following a set of rules. God's commandment to us is to believe on His Son. Maybe, Rod, you would feel that healing on the Sabbath was not breaking it but those who were the most learned in the Law, did. These were the teachers of Israel. If anyone understood the Sabbath Law, these were the ones that did. Jesus went to the synagogues on the Sabbath because that is where He would find the worshipers. Rod, you trivialized the disciples going through the grain fields picking grain. That is breaking the Sabbath.

If picking grain on the Sabbath is okay, then working for food on the Sabbath is okay as well.

Anyway, that is not the main problem with observing the Sabbath out of necessity. We have a new commandment from God. It is not really new but we just weren't able to see it before. This commandment is that we believe on His Son. Everyone who believes on His Son shall be saved from their sins. Everyone who does not believe on His Son remains condemned to death.

Believing on Jesus doesn't mean that He is not going to give us some direction. His sheep know His voice and they follow Him. The only ones that Jesus would tell, however, to obey the Sabbath day on Saturday would be those who are still trying to earn themselves a place in God's Kingdom. The rich young ruler is a prime example. No matter how much you feel you are obeying His commandments, you are breaking them somewhere. Rod, are you telling me that you obey all the commandments of God? I would challenge that statement if that is what you are saying. You say I keep nine out of the ten. Are you kidding me? I fail on each count and so do you if you would be very honest with me.

However, Rod, it is so good to have you back even though I think you are just trying to get me going here. I have missed seeing your posts. I have assumed that I am just on the wrong forums.

God bless you all.

Roy

Permalink Reply by Rod Askew on September 26, 2010 at 3:43am

Roy,
You say:
Maybe, Rod, you would feel that healing on the Sabbath was not breaking it but those who were the most learned in the Law, did. These were the teachers of Israel. If anyone understood the Sabbath Law, these were the ones that did. Jesus went to the synagogues on the Sabbath because that is where He would find the worshipers. Rod, you trivialized the disciples going through the grain fields picking grain. That is breaking the Sabbath.

Aren't you forgeting that there was one person present who understood and was more learned in the Sabbath than anyone. Jesus Christ is Lord of the Sabbath.
No one understood more than he did.
The Pharisees and Saducees didn't have a clue, they had clouded the Sabbath with their pious traditions.
Jesus endeavoured to set them straight and they hated him for that.
But He did observe the Sabbath, every Saturday just as every good Jewish man did, as still does.

Jew and gentile are one. We are the branches grafted in to the root of Israel.

I would never make a statement such as I am so righteous that I don't break any of the commandments.
Of course I do, I sin everyday just like you, LT , David and everyone else on this site and in the world.
Do I try to keep every commandment, Yes I do, as best I can in the strenght of Christ..

I know that I am forgiven for my sins but do we stop trying to sin or do we give in to sin.
Of course we fight the enemy with every breath in our body.
I am not out there purposely seeking other gods, or worshipping idols, stealing, murdering etc etc.

The 10 commandments are the ultimate guide to what God expects of us and how he wants us to live.

The alternative is to flit through life without a care singing, I am saved , I am save, I can do anything I want because I am under grace and saved. (nice song that) LOL.

I didn't say that anyone successfully kept the other nine, BUT christianity accepts that the other nine should be kept, it is just the Sabbath they can't come to accept.

Blessings
Rod

Permalink Reply by RoyW on September 26, 2010 at 4:38am

Rod,

You are not getting what I am saying. I do keep the Sabbath. I have rested from all my works. You, on the other hand, are still working away. It is time to stop your labors and find rest in Him. Yes, I am flitting (where did you get that word) through life. I am enjoying His work, His labor, His successes, His victory, His righteousness, His substitutionary work, His love, His care, His salvation. However, what you don't see is that those who have rested in Him just may find it a whole lot easier to obey all His commandments. They have a different mindset. I don't know any grace people saying the words you are saying they are saying. Grace people are so busy working for Him they don't find time to indulge their sin nature as much. They are not perfect but they are certainly saying I can do anything I want because their want is His want. Their will is His will. I think, however, you were referencing their sin nature desires. We leave that to you Armenians to deal with. O, now I have said it.

True grace people love God and want to serve Him just as much as any Armenian. Armenians, by the way, love Him just as much. If you find an individual out there that is saying I can follow the desires of my sinful nature, you may have just found yourself someone that hasn't come to know Jesus yet.

However, for me, I am getting tired of the connotation that grace people get to do whatever their sin nature desires. There is nothing that could be further from the truth.

Yes, it is time that all should keep the Sabbath. If you are not keeping the Sabbath then you haven't found Him. If you are still laboring, you need to come to Him and find rest. He will give you the true rest of God.

Roy

Permalink Reply by Rod Askew on September 26, 2010 at 3:31pm

Roy,

Respectfully, I don't think that you get it.
One of the great joys of my life is giving a full day each week to the Lord.
It isn't a burden of any sort and the benefits are endless.

I still walk in prayer each day of the week, but there is something so special in spending the day reading and studying the word each week.
It is easy to say that every day is a Sabbath day for Christians, but I am sorry that just isn't true.
Busy people with hectic jobs, children and lives would barely offer 10 minutes a day in prayer and thought for the Lord.
Roy, you may be different and one of the dedicated ones.
A couple of hours of church on Sunday and then off to the shops or a cafe for lunch does not constitute a Sabbath as far as I am concerned.
If that is enough worship for most Christians then, hey that's great for them.
Setting a day aside gives me the opportunity to truely worship Him and learn more.
No burden, no law, just joy in the Lord.
I am not being selfrighteous and saying "look at me I am giving a day up for the Lord"
But I think that is what God intended for us when he set the Sabbath as a day of rest in His word.

Jesus didn't do away with the sabbath.
He said: "If you love me you will keep my Sabbath".
Jesus understood his Father's wants for us better than anyone.

I am not being contentious here Roy.
Just like all the different doctrines out there, we all have different understandings of the word.
You read it one way and that's good for you.
I read it another way and that is a blessing for me.

But please don't ever think that I am labouiring away under some ancient Levitical laws.
I am being monumentally blessed by spending quality time with my Father.
God bless you all
Rod

Permalink Reply by RoyW on September 26, 2010 at 4:10pm

Rod,

I applaud you for what you are doing. However, where did Jesus say, "If you love me you will keep my Sabbath?" I am not familiar with that verse.

Are you spending this time on Saturday or Sunday? Are you going to a Saturday church? At this point I am just going to leave the concept of the "Sabbath rest in Christ" alone.

Roy

Permalink Reply by Rod Askew on September 27, 2010 at 2:44am

Hi Roy,

Oh course you know that scripture.
Jesus said "if you love me keep my commandments."

Commandment #1
:Mark 12:30
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'
This commandment relates to #’s 1 to 4 of the 10 commandments.

ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'

FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'

Commandment #2: Love your neighbour as yourself.
This commandment relates to commandment 5 to 10.

FIVE: 'Honor your father and your mother.'

SIX: 'You shall not murder.'

SEVEN: 'You shall not commit adultery.'

EIGHT: 'You shall not steal.'

NINE: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'

TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.'

Jesus understood these commandments better than anyone and was reiterating to Israel what His father had written with his own finger and given to Moses long before.

For the record, I follow God's instructions for the Sabbath and go from Friday sunset until Saturday sunset each week.
It is a complete blessing and I wouldn't think of changing it.

In His love
Rod

Permalink Reply by RoyW on September 27, 2010 at 3:57am

Rod,

Again, I cannot say what God has instructed you to do with your Saturdays. I do know that the physical observance of a law will not put you in any better standing with our God. God tired of these physical observances to the point of detesting them.
Isa 1:13-14
13 Stop bringing meaningless offerings!
Your incense is detestable to me.
New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations —
I cannot bear your evil assemblies.
14 Your New Moon festivals and your appointed feasts
my soul hates.
They have become a burden to me;
I am weary of bearing them. NIV

God is much more concerned with our hearts. I am reluctant to say this but I believe you have missed the entire point of Jesus' answer in Mark 12. You said that He said if you love me you will obey the Sabbath. If that is what you are getting from Mark 12, you are missing the entire point. Jesus is saying here that the heart is more important than any physical observance. He is not advocating a strict observance of a Sabbath day.

The Christian faith is not about the observance of the Law but about finding grace and mercy through Jesus Christ. The things that Jesus taught were much more about the heart than about strict rules or regulations. Again, it is okay that you devote your Saturdays to rest just as long as you don't make that an article of faith or something of the kind. That is not what faith is all about. Which is better to do on Saturday - to help a brother in need or sit at home and rest? Jesus taught the importance of the heart. I noticed you were putting down your brothers simply because they did not observe Saturdays in the same way as you did. Are you sure that your heart is in better shape than theirs? Why are you so insistent on an observance of a Law?

Please read very carefully what Paul says concerning this:

Col 2:16-19

16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19 He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow. NIV

The Jews were accomplished in the strict observance of rules but were greatly lacking in the matters of the heart. Which was the more important? Obviously, the latter was the concern of Christ. Following the Sabbath day is not what Christ came to teach us.

Again I am saying, Rod, you are missing the entire point. The command that Jesus gave us is to love one another. He did not come advocating strict observances of the Law. Your position on this forum is that it is only because of man's tradition that we switched from Saturday worship to Sunday worship.

Also, you made a ridiculing remark about the following statement in Christianity:

“Oh No! We are not under the law any longer we are under grace.”


Rod, forgive me for being so blunt but you really need to learn what that means. You also said:

The traditions of man above the word of God.

Doesn’t that make us Pharisees?


You are advocating a return to the observance of a Sabbath day. You need to read your posts very carefully. When you do you will find that is exactly what you are advocating. How sad that is. I thought you had broken free from that. I thought you were now free in Christ. What happened that caused you so quickly to revert back to the Law? Rod, the Law won't save you from your sins. It can't put you into a right relationship with God. Strict observances of rules is not what God wants from us. That is what He hates. Your desire to bring the church back to an observance of the Sabbath day is not coming from the Holy Spirit. You need to think very seriously about what you are saying. You are going back under Law. There is nothing wrong with you resting on Saturday but doing it out of a need to observe a rule is detestable. That is not the answer. Put your full trust in the Lord for your salvation. He has fulfilled all of the Law for you. You couldn't begin to obey the Law. I guarantee you that you aren't even obeying the Law about the Sabbath.

I am very sad to have to write these things. Rod, do not go back under the Law. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the church worshiping on Sunday or any other day of the week for that matter. However, that in itself is no answer either. It is the heart that counts. The absolute only thing that matters to God is your faith expressing itself in love. It is far easier to observe rules than to bare one's heart. Yet, the latter is what He is requiring - not the former.

A concerned brother,
Roy

Permalink Reply by Rod Askew on September 27, 2010 at 4:42am

Roy,

You have completely quoted Isa 1:13-14 out of context and one needs to read the rest of that entre verse to see that God was angry at Israel at that point in time and was scolding them for their acts.

As I previously said in my posts, I am not trying and don't want to be a born again Jew.
I have known people who change their names to hebrew names and even have late life circumsions in order to be more "Jewish". That is not me.

I am not ridiculing anyone when I say that the Christians always quote "no we don't need the law we are under grace" . I am merely stating a fact.
I believe that Christians today use it as an excuse to be lazy in the word.

Everything is grace, grace , grace, we're okay we're saved.

Roy, just as you feel saddened by what you think is me staggering under the weight of God's law (which by the way I'm not), I feel sad for many Christians that they use a copout line like, we are under grace as an excuse to not worship our wonderful God and creator..

I have read Col 2:16-19 many times Roy and understand what Paul was talking about.
Again read the entire book of Colossians 2 and get it into context instead of quoting 2 or 3 lines of scripture that appear to support and make your point.

I am not and never would advocate a return to the complete observance of the Levitical law, although there will come a time when we are all with the Father that such laws may very well be practised again as we worship Him in His own house. Read Ezekial.

Roy you need not be concerned for me for I feel right with the Lord.

You should be more concerned for those Christians that come to the Lord, get baptised and never bother with worship ever again because they have been told they are now "saved under grace."

The path is narrow my friend and it just may not be the incredibly easy walk that you make it out to be.

Again, The Sabbath to me is a great joy.
You have your thoughts and I have mine , Roy.

I respect you and I am not attacking you here in any shape or form.
I have read your posts on here for some months now and I respect you and love you as a brother in Christ.

The truth is that I believe you haven't got it all right and you believe that I haven't got it right.
I am prepared to leave it at that and remain brother and friends.

Any more that that and we will be treading over LT's hot topic no go line.

In His love
Rod

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