SATURDAY OR SUNDAY WORSHIP - WHICH IS RIGHT?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by RoyW on September 27, 2010 at 9:31am

Rod,

Do you prefer that I not respond to your post? If so, I won't. I don't want to offend you. Yes, you are correct in that I say it is all by grace. However, you are wrong when you say that makes it an easy road. That is all I am going to say unless you want me to say more.

I am also concerned about those who read these posts less they might believe that the Lord is calling us back to a Sabbath day meaning a certain day of the week. I am very confident that He is not doing that.

Rod, I must reply to your saying I am taking Scripture out of context. I have read Col 2 many, many times. The rest of the chapter only solidifies the verses I quoted. For instance, the verse just preceding the verses I quoted say very straight forward:

Col 2:13-15

13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. NIV

He is not calling us back to a Sabbath day. I would never criticize you for your observance of sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. I am saying that God is not calling the church back to that observance.

However, I will not say all I want to say at this time. I will let you believe what you want to believe. However, if it is not by grace, grace, grace, as you have stated, then we are all in a heap of trouble.

Your brother,
Roy

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on September 26, 2010 at 2:06am

Hey Rod,

The discussions LT pointed to covered the topic well. I believe we have enough scripture to back up the fact that the Apostles changed the date to the resurrection day. I worship God daily and the Sabbath day in my understanding was just a shadow of the Rest spoken of in Hebrews 3 and 4, but this is not a topic that I debate much. I believe if some in the body want to worship on Saturday or any day for that matter is fine with me and with God. As long as folks do not make a day a fundamental truth of our faith, it’s ok with me.

The Sabbath was a shadow of the Rest we enter to by faith.

Blessings :)

Permalink Reply by forgiven on September 27, 2010 at 1:04pm

David.....I do not want to 'argue' either way....but I would really love to see, as you have said, ''enough scripture'........to back the fact that 'The Apostles'...changed the Sabbath to resurection day.''
I think Jesus made it clear that it was more important to love God and each other than tyo bicker over 'Sabbath'...or any other laws......other than to love. However....I would love to see where the 'Apostles' literally/ scripturally changed the Sabbath Day. I have always had the understanding that it was Constantine, or someone in Constantine's era for political reasons to merge with the Pagan 'Sun' day.

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on September 27, 2010 at 1:22pm

Forgiven,

I will let David respond to your direct answer to him.

Regarding Constantine, we know that he inacted a law that "officially" set the day of worship on Sunday. We also know through the writings of Justin Martyr that at least some Christians were worshiping on Sunday as early as the middle of the second century. Many have issues with Justin Martyr, but regardless of whether one has issues with him what he wrote in his First Apology cannot be denied. Chapter 67 states:

But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead.

There are various beliefs regarding this time. Some believe that only 2 or 3 regions had adopted Sunday worship. Others believe that Sabbath observance and Sunday worship coexisted. All of this can be researched if one is interested enough and willing to read alot, but one must recognize that often writers tend to write with at least some bias if not with a full blown bias regarding a subject.

Lord Bless,
LT
TheNET Coordinator

Permalink Reply by forgiven on September 27, 2010 at 2:03pm

Are the writings of Justin Martyr being considered as 'scriptural evidence' that the Apostles (11 original +1) changed the Sabbath to the Resurection day? Or, is this being presented as 'scriptural' from the Canon/ The Holy Bible?
I think we need to make this clear before we proceed.
When 'I personally' say that something is 'scripture'....I am speaking 'only' of the Holy Bible......not from 'any other' literary work, whether or not that literarary work is considered to be divinely inspired. I do not think it would be 'fair' for anyone to quote something as 'scripture' unless they can give reference 'to' that 'scripture' somewhere between 'Genesis and Revelation of John'. There are many 'other' literary works which were 'considered' for 'scripture', but 'were not accepted' 'as' scripture'/the 'Canon'. So these works should be referred to as 'non-scriptural'. Am I correct?

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on September 27, 2010 at 3:36pm

Forgiven,

Please go back and read what I wrote.

Note 1: I clearly stated that I was not addressing what you asked David, but only the information regarding Constantine.

Note 2: Please show me where I alluded to this article by Justin Martyr as being Scripture or of the Canon in any way. I even ackowledge that many do not like him altogether, but that was not alluding to his writing s being Scriptural in any way. You have missed the point my friend. This is simply added to show historically that by the middle of the 2nd century the church, at least in some areas, was without a doubt worshipping on Sunday.

Lord Bless,
LT
TheNET Coordinator

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on September 27, 2010 at 2:08pm

Hello bro Rob,

The article I placed at the end of the discussion I think does a wonderful job explaining my stance. Check it out and if you have issues with the way the scriptures’ in it are being interpreted, please feel free to point that out and we can go from there.

Blessings

Permalink Reply by forgiven on September 27, 2010 at 2:22pm

David, I read the article....but where is the 'scripture' that say's 'the apostles 'changed the day' of the Sabbath? I am not argueing that either day is correct. I typically worship on Sunday, I believe God is not the author of confusion.....so I do not think it is my place to tell Christians, especially innocent children to worship on Saturday. Jesus is able to order His house when and if He sees fit. I have many SDA friends, and I have no problem worshiping with them on the 7th day. I also respect Jewish tradition to observe the Sabbath on which day they believe, although I am not a Jew.
However, my question remains. Where is the 'scripture' of the 'Apostles'..... 'changing the day' of the Sabbath? I am not aware of it. If it is there to read plainly, I would like to read it for myself.
This is a very 'plain' question....

Permalink Reply by Rod Askew on September 27, 2010 at 3:18pm

Hi Rob,

It is no use looking for the scripture, it doesn't exist.
With all due respect to everyone here, you are absolutely correct in that it was Constantine who changed the worship day to Sunday (Sun worship day) in order to drag more pagans into the fold.
And it worked. The "Church" managed to wrangle more pagans into the church by changing the church to suit the pagans instead of changing the pagans to suit the church.
Many on here bombarded the Catholics for false doctrine and teaching in the way they changed scripture, teachings etc.
Well HEY, here is Constantine the pagan pope of the Roman church changing God’s sovereign word, and the church now is happy to jump into bed with the Catholics because it suits them to worship on Sunday.

David you put up someone else’s explanation of why the church worships on Sunday.
Please Google should we worship on a Saturday or Sunday Sabbath and there are 1000 articles or more supporting Saturday Sabbath on the topic. Don't pick out one article from someone else to support your argument, give it to me straight from scripture where it was changed.

Do you feel that Hegelian Dialectics have any part of the Church today?
Thanks Veronica


In His love
Rod

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on September 27, 2010 at 4:06pm

Rod,

The majority of us use articles that describe our position on a particular subject. You have used them quite a bit yourself in multiple discussions. I agree with the writer of the article and he does not have grammatical errors as my own construction of an answer would have, so as I have explained in multiple discussions, I chose to capitalize on wonderful articles that make my biblical case. What a joy to live in such a blessed time.

I truly appreciate Andrews’s latest post:

"KNOW WHEN TO STOP The number-one reason most people lose arguments is not because they're wrong; but because they don’t know when to quit. There is a moment when you have marshalled all of the factual and emotional issues in your favor and have expressed them as best as you can."

I personally think this discussion has reached that point. The case has been made both ways and is now time for me to say that at this point the wise things to do, is to agree that we will not see eye to eye on this issue and leave it at that. If others want to continue it is completely fine as long as we understand that loving one another supersedes all other motives and goals. Loving each other with the truth in gentleness is essential here.

Blessings to you bro. :)

Permalink Reply by RoyW on September 27, 2010 at 7:39pm

Forgiven,

I am not David but I can tell you that he has to be feeling a little overwhelmed. When I got home from work, I opened my computer and there were 43 messages on my e-mail page and nearly 40 of them were from AAG. I can just imagine how many he, LT and Carla must have. How they find time to answer everyone is beyond me. They do a great job.

LT has sufficiently explained very well your question concerning Constantine. I would like to address just a little your question about Scripture. Does the Bible say that we are to worship on Sunday? No! However, does it indicate to us that there were meetings being conducted on Sundays? Absolutely! It begins with Christ. Christ chose to appear to the Apostles on the first day of the week and they worshiped Him. It is true that the Jewish Christians seemed unable to give up Saturday customs in favor of Sunday but the Gentile church had no problems realizing they were no longer under Law but under grace. You will find many, many, many that will attempt to bring you back under the Law. But Jesus fulfilled the Law including the Sabbath.

However, David said the Scripture was clear and I believe it is. Paul talks about taking up an offering on the first day of the week in 1 Cor 16. It appears obvious that they were meeting together on that day. Also, John refers to the day He was in the Spirit as the Lord's day when the Lord gave Him the vision we know as the beautiful Book of Revelation.

However, the verse that I think is the clearest is found in Acts 20 towards the end of the church's history as recorded in New Testament. Notice:

Ac 20:7-8

7 Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight. NKJV

This was in Troas, a Gentile group of believers. It is very apparent that the customs of the disciples there was to meet on Sundays, long before the days of Constantine. Paul did not in any way suggest to them that they should have their meeting on the Sabbath.

I think David gave an excellent post of talking about not offending those who still feel it is necessary to worship on Saturdays based on Romans 14:5. I am going to adhere to this advice. However, it is obvious from this Scripture that there were those who worshiped on Saturday and some that did not. Each man was to be fully convinced in his own mind. However, it was not the Gentile believers that were worshiping on Saturdays but the Jewish Christians. The Gentile Christians were quite comfortable with Sunday worship.

Today, there is a strong pull by some to attempt to force Gentile Christians to go back to Saturday worship. I believe this is a trick of the enemy to take our focus off of Christ and get it back on the Law. Some will disagree with me but that does not change my mind on the issue. I have seen some in my own community fall into this practice. The result has been to bring unnecessary division in the body. There is no question that Saturday worship continued in the early church but it was all Jewish Christians.

I know this is not necessarily a forum of grace v. the Law but a discussion of needing to worship on Saturday must include the discussion for it very clearly attempts to bring us back under the Law. Even Peter was escaping the curse until men from James arrived and frightened him back under.

Gal 2:11-16

11 When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12 Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13 The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

14 When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?

15 "We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' 16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified. NIV

The Scripture is abundantly clear that we are set free from the Law which would include worship or observance of the Sabbath as a special day. Jesus is the fulfillment of the Sabbath Law. Today we observe the Sabbath by completely trusting in Jesus for all our works. Some get this and some do not. Therefore I must respect those who don't. The rest God speaks of is faith in Christ Jesus. That is God's command to us today. If observing the Sabbath day helps you in your faith then it is a good thing. However, if you are observing it because you believe it is a rule you must follow, then you are in trouble.

Forgiven, do you understand grace? Do you understand that Christ has done everything necessary for you to have a complete relationship with God? He tells you to come to Him and rest. That is the rest I am speaking of. I trust that you will find that rest.

God bless you.
Roy
Why do we believe the Lord's day is Sunday? It is because it is the day of His resurrection and we come together every Sunday to celebrate our final victory over sin, death and hell.

The worship of God on Sunday is well established in early Christian history.

Permalink Reply by Rod Askew on September 27, 2010 at 8:27pm

Haha your so funny Roy,

First you say:

The Scripture is abundantly clear that we are set free from the Law which would include worship or observance of the Sabbath as a special day. Jesus is the fulfillment of the Sabbath Law.

And then you say:

Roy
Why do we believe the Lord's day is Sunday? It is because it is the day of His resurrection and we come together every Sunday to celebrate our final victory over sin, death and hell.

So by your very ommission you are saying that you do keep a special day or a sabbath.

If you believe we are no longer obligated to the 4th commandment why do you bother to come together for a special day at all? It is tradition that causes you to do what you do and you nullify the Law of the Lord and commandments written with His own finger. This is not a condemnation but an observation.

Jesus said: If you love me, keep my commandments (all 10). I show my love for my Jesus when I sit at his feet for the whole day on Saturday as well as worshipping in corporate worship on Sunday. Please don't judge anyone that feels obligated to do that because you will be judging someone who worships Jesus as Mary did. I don't feel that I am chained to a law to keep this day. It is a huge blessing to me and I call the Sabbath a delight!


Tell me something: Why do so many Jews keep Saturday? Messianic christians - I have actually worshipped with Messianic Jews on Saturday and its beautiful. Why does it offend you so that they set that day apart as special. I think it beautiful. I have even been know to bake a challah, light shabbat candles and say special prayers and break bread and wine with hubby and the kids - it is a beautiful way to worship - don't judge our worship because YOU THINK we are chained to the LAW. We have been known to watch the first stars in the sky and look to the heavens in worship of our Lord and Mighty God!

You have upset me now Roy because Rod is grieved by your comments.

Let us not judge (condemn) anyone whether it be Sunday or Saturday - one man esteems one day and another another - let God be the judge. And that judgement will be based upon this:

Mat 7:23 And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; "depart from Me, those working lawlessness!" Psa. 6:8

Lawlessness means iniquity or violation of law from a root that means not subject to the law written with God's own finger.

As to what the correct day is who knows - there have been so many changes to calendars over the centuries and man made changes - perhaps even the jews are doing the wrong day but I doubt it. Remember we are grafted into the vine. Don't boast against them - they bearest us! Don't think you know better than them. Read Isa 56 - it is referring to an everlasting covenant - the new covenant I think!

Heb 4:9 So, then, there remains a sabbath rest to the people of God.

Roy, I will not respond if you reply not because I hate you but because I have no wish to be contentious any further than this addition to the discussion.

The Lord bless you.

Linda Ruth

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