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Salvation - please help
Hebrews 6:4-6 and 2 Peter 2:20. These verses give great difficulty to those who believe in an unconditional salvation. It is very clear that anyone who fits this description will not be in God's Kingdom. How do you explain it to someone who fits this description and want to repent again?
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Hello sister Gerda,
This is what I see more than our perseverance, our preservation. We overcome by believing in Jesus and not our performance.
How do we explain Hebrews 6:4 for it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit. 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come- 6 and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame.If we say these verses are saying that true Christians that fall away are impossible to bring back to repentance then we have to rewrite much of the bible that tells us how God’s Mercy is renewed daily. ENLIGHTEN – intellectual understanding, they have receive biblical instruction. Understanding the Gospel does not mean a person is saved or regenerated. See John 1:9 where it is obvious that Jesus enlightens everyone born in the world. TASTED THE HEAVENLY GIFT – This can only be a Christian we say, but all men experience the general goodness of God, but that does not mean that they are all saved. Tasting Jesus or the Holy Spirit (the gift), the Gospel does not guarantee salvation. Many people experience a tasted (as many do today as well) the miracles of Jesus, they are around the church or church folks, but do not go beyond a taste, like the seeds that felt on the rocks or by the side way, or among the thorns etc… only one seed felt on good ground. PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT = the concept of partaking is used in 3:1, 3:14 and 12:8 of a relationship that only believers have , but the context must be the final determining factor her. This context 4-6 seems to exclude true believers. People can partake of the works (miracles) of the Holy Spirit and not accept Christ. The convicting ministry of the Holy Spirit can be rejected which makes them partakers in such way. The impossibility of THOSE THAT FALL AWAY to be RENEWED TO REPANTANCE is because they have rejected Him with full knowledge and conscious experience. With full revelation they rejected the truth such as the Pharisees did in their time.
If we want to make these verses to mean that we can lose our salvation then we have to admit that once lost, one could never get it back, for it is IMPOSSIBLE to renew them to repentance.
Hebrews 10 Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins. 27 There is only the terrible expectation of God’s judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies. 28 For anyone who refused to obey the law of Moses was put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God’s mercy to us. 30 For we know the one who said, “I will take revenge. I will pay them back.” He also said, “The Lord will judge his own people.” 31 It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 32 Think back on those early days when you first learned about Christ. Remember how you remained faithful even though it meant terrible suffering. 33 Sometimes you were exposed to public ridicule and were beaten, and sometimes you helped others who were suffering the same things. 34 You suffered along with those who were thrown into jail, and when all you owned was taken from you, you accepted it with joy. You knew there were better things waiting for you that will last forever. 35 So do not throw away this confident trust in the Lord. Remember the great reward it brings you! 36 Patient endurance is what you need now, so that you will continue to do God’s will. Then you will receive all that he has promised. 37 “For in just a little while, the Coming One will come and not delay. 38 And my righteous ones will live by faith. But I will take no pleasure in anyone who turns away.” 39 But we are not like those who turn away from God to their own destruction. We are the faithful ones, whose souls will be saved.
These verses deal with the sin of Apostasy. Apostates are people who get close to the things pertaining to God and salvation, but intentionally fall away, they understand the Gospel, but rebel and walk away. Not all the Hebrews would respond to the gentle invitation of vv.19-25. The writer excludes himself and genuine believers from those who turn back (v.39). Sin willfully – the sin is rejecting Christ deliberately. Knowledge – the Greek term denotes specific knowledge, not general spiritual knoladge(6:4, 1Tim. 2:4). Judas is a good example of a disciple who had no lack of knowledge, but lack faith and became the arch-apostate. No longer – the apostate is beyond salvation
Blessings
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Jude 21 Keep your selves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
Verses like this one continue to remind us that our salvation is not a passive one; we are to be active in the process of Sanctification. I believe this is saying that we are to be obedient and faithful by living out our salvation (Phil. 2:12), while God works out His will (Phil. 2:13). God wants us in a place where we can be shower with fellowship with Him, instead of being in a place of correction. These are the verses that are assumed to mean that we can actually lose our salvation IF we do not remain in Him.
Matthew 24:12-13 Sin will be rampant everywhere, and the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
What can be more obvious than what is being said here? The one who endures to the end will be saved. This is what I understand by verses such as this one, in light of the rest of scripture – the ones who persevere are the same ones who are saved. Our perseverance does not secure our salvation for is not due to works, since true believers are kept by the power for God through faith for salvation. (1Pet.1:5) God says: I will put my fear in their hearts so that they will not depart from me (Jer. 32:40) those who fall away from Christ give conclusive proof that they were never truly believers to begin with. 1John 2:19 these people left our churches, but they never really belonged with us; otherwise they would have stayed with us. When they left, it proved that they did not belong with us. The warnings and pleas in scripture are among the means God uses to secure our perseverance in the Faith. I see God telling us to persevere until the end in faith, not to lose faith in Him and his power to keep us and then when the word calls us to overcome the world, God tells us the following in 1John 5: For every child of God defeats this evil world, and we achieve this victory through our faith. 5 And who can win this battle against the world? Only those who believe that Jesus is the Son of God.
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Brother LT share the breakdown below on the following discussion:
http://www.allaboutgod.net/forum/topics/losing-salvation?id=1383940...
2 Peter 2:20-21
These people know the right path, chose to walk in obedience to the law, but never are converted. They are referred to as “Dogs” (v.22). God simply does not refer to His children as dogs. In verse 20 in the Greek the verse means to “escape the defilement of this world.”
Earlier in 2 Peter we read the following words of assurance:
“His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” 2 Peter 1:3-11 NIV
2 Peter 3:17-18
“Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.” KJV 2 Pe 3:17
In the Greek it relates to continuing in the path, the way of life.
It relates to being led away from the path that is pleasing to God. It does not mean salvation lost. Can a church fall into error and lose its witness and therefore lose its effectiveness for the kingdom?
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D'Lynne,
I am truly enjoying your posts. Thank you for sharing and please know that as I examine your post is not with a desire to be divisive or to start useless arguments. This is a secondary issue and as important as any secondary issue is, is not worth dividing over it, so please know I am not looking for a fight. I pray you know that. Just looking to edify one another.
Can you give me the scriptural map to support what you have stated above?
>>mature born again Christians, who have a full understanding of Christ and are filled with the Holy Spirit, then choose to reject the Holy Spirit, we cannot get Him back.
Where does Scripture say that? Where does it say that a mature born again believer can reject the Holy Spirit?
>>That is the one and ONLY unforgivable sin.
Attributing and/or denying the work of the Spirit is what is unforgivable. A born again person cannot do such a thing. Is not taught in Scripture once. Hebrew 6 is not saying such a thing, I don't think, but please guide me through it to see how you derive your logic from the verses in Hebrews if you don't mind sis.
>>God will depart such a person and leave them reprobate
Not trying to trick you or be mean to you my sis, but where do we find this in scripture?
>>He will not force Himself on anyone.
Again where do we find God saying that? I mean I see God stepping into our lives (the born again) where His will will be done. When Jonas did not want to go to Nineveh, God stepped into the picture and rerouted the prophet. God has every right to do Good in our lives.
>>love the parable of the sower too, but it is speaking about the fruit, of unfruitful believers, not only the unsaved.
Scripture tells us that every believer will bear fruit.
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but the corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit
Mat 13:8 and others fell upon the good ground, and yielded fruit, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
So every born again Christian will bear fruit. Those that don't are not born again.
In Love your bro - DV
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Family,
Once a person is regenerated/borne again, it is true that they now belong to God and will be kept by God unto salvation, but by no means does that truth give anyone a license to sin. They have been bought with the precious blood of the Lamb and no longer belong to themselves. And Jesus will make sure they are kept because He is able to keep everyone God gives Him.
Hebrews 12:2
looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
1 Peter 1:18-19 (New King James Version)
18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.
Jude 1:24
Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
John 6
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
HAS JESUS EVER FAILED TO DO THE WILL OF THE FATHER? NOPE! HE WILL KEEP US.
BUT BY NO MEANS DO THEY HAVE A LICENSE TO SIN. If a true Christian falls for this lie, they will quickly find out that God corrects His people. They will learn that they were mistaken. God will not correct those who made a public confession or know Christian lingo and even work around the church, but did not truly repent. Only God knows how many millions have gone up to accept Christ so the wife can get out their back or because a person in Church almost dragged them to do it or etc...
“ My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”
7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.
Romans 6
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Those among us that can live a life of sin without conviction from the Holy Spirit and claim to be Chritian lie.
1 John 1
6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
A child of God can fall (for how long? Only God knows) and can even fall into habitual sin, but rest asure that God will correct Him and He will lose benefits of obediance, such as the joy etc..God will make sure HIs own are kept by Jesus though. A true child of God will be dealt wtth as a son/daugther.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us
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Sis Gerda-
>>How do you explain it to someone who fits this description and want to repent again?
Simply tell them to repent.
Psalm 51:17
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.
"I tell you the truth, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times!" (John 13:38b).
Jesus Himself has already explained this. He said that Peter had already been bathed and needed to wash only his feet. Judas had never been bathed and had never opened his life to Jesus. Peter had dirty feet but a clean heart; Judas had an evil heart of unbelief, though perhaps an outward walk of apparent morality. And that is the sort person who will betray Jesus.Judas betrayed Jesus; Peter denied his Lord. What is the difference between these two men? What is the difference between betrayal and denial?
What Peter lacked was the understanding of love. Peter thought that he loved Jesus, and he did with all the human emotion of which he was capable. But he had not yet learned to walk by Christ's love for him. He had not yet learned to find his identity, not in his efforts to try to be something in himself, but in Jesus' acceptance of him. That is the secret, and Jesus knew that. Peter, with the utmost dedication of his flesh, with complete consecration and sincerity of heart, could say to Jesus, Lord, I know where you're going--you're going into death. And I'll lay down my life with you. And Jesus understood that. He said, Peter, thank you. But before the morning breaks, you will have denied me three times.
Yet you remember in John 21 when Jesus gathered with His disciples on the shore of Galilee after the resurrection. He built a fire for them and laid some fish on to cook, and they had breakfast together. When they finished eating, Jesus said to Peter, Peter, do you love Me?
And Peter said, Lord, You know I love You.
Again, He said, Peter, do you love Me?
Lord, You know I love You.
And once again, Peter, do you love Me?
And Peter said, Lord, You know everything. You know that I love You.
And it was then that Jesus said, Feed my sheep and commissioned this disciple after he learned what love really was. When Peter learned how to draw upon Jesus' available love to be strengthened in order to reach out in love for others, then Jesus sent him out with a worldwide commission to feed the sheep of God.
John leaves us in this account helping us to see how thoroughly Jesus understands us and sees all that is going on in our lives and is ready to impart to us the great secret by which we can fulfill that impossible demand--to give up in order to gain, to lose in order to win, to go down to defeat in order to arise as a victor. It is as we learn to love by the love of Jesus and to draw upon Him that all men will know that you are my disciples (John 13:35).
"Lord, teach me to love in this way. I stand, like Peter, uncertain, afraid, knowing how weak I am, knowing that my human love can never stand the pressure and the test, but knowing that You are able to say to me, as You said to Peter, You cannot follow Me now; but afterward you will"
Life Application: What is our understanding of love? Where does our love originate and thus whose love is it?
Copyright © 2007 by Elaine Stedman — From the book The Power of His Presence: a year of devotions from the writings of Ray Stedman; compiled by Mark Mitchell. It may be copied for personal non-commercial use only in its entirety free of charge. All copies must contain this copyright notice and a hyperlink to www.RayStedman.org if the copy is posted on the Internet. Please direct any questions you may have towebmaster@RayStedman.org.
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Janie
We let go of fear by getting to know and understand who our God is. When we believe who God claims to be we can rest in His love, protection, provision and power to be in control of all things.
We also need to understand and believe who we are in Christ. We are children of God.
Blessings
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Permalink Reply by Carla on
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Janie, These words of David's are right on...When we believe who God claims to be we can rest in His love, protection, provision and power to be in control of all things.
scripture to support it:
1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear [fn] involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.
1Jo 4:19 We love, because He first loved us.
Right now your fear is most familiar to you...as you read and study God's Word HE will become more familiar to you, and you will begin to rest in Him promises as the Holy spirit leads you and guides you into an intimate relationship with Himself. You will begin to rest in His perfect Love, and as you do, you will not be fearful.. Because God's perfect Love casts out all fear. You will become perfected in His Love.
We will never understand the Soveriegnty of God, and how Big He is.. but as we study and learn of Him we begin to know more, and that helps us to rest in His Sovereignty knowing that HE is very capable of fulfilling all of Hhis promises to us and more. God has many names.. and as we learn those names, we can pray those specific names to Him. Here are some of them which may help you:
Name--------------Scripture--------Characteristics
Bread of Life----------John 6:35-------satisfies our hunger for life and eternity
Counselor-------------John 14:26------comfortor and encourager
Eternal God (El Olam)---Genesis 21:33----Forever Lord, Infinite
Father ---------------------Galatians 4:6-----God adopts us into His family..new relationship
Glory-----------------------Psalm 106:20------Perfection and Splendor
God AlMighty (El Shaddai)--Genesis 17:1---All Powerful, keeps promises
God (Elohim)-----------Genesis 1:1-----All Powerful Creator
God of Hope-----------Romans 15:13----Our Security, Provider
God of Truth-------------Isaiah 65:16--------Righteous and accurate
God Our SAvior--------1 Timothy 2:3------Our only hope for Salvation
God of gods-------------Psalm 136:2--------Only true God above all.
God of our Fathers-----Ezra 7:27-----------Faithful Kind and Unchanging
God of Retribution------Jeremiah 51:56---Punishes evildoers
Holy One----------------------Proverbs 9:10---Pure, Righteous Judge
Holy and Righteous One----Acts 3:14---Jesus, perfect in every way
I AM-Jehovah---------------Exodus 3:14-----Eternal Lord
Jesus Christ------------------Romans 3:22-----Fully man, Fully God
King of the Ages----------Revelation 15:3------Sovereign over all time
Light of the World--------John 8:12--------------Dispels darkness, gives life
Lion of the tribe of Judah---Revelation 5:5-----Leader, Irresistable, strength, majesty
Living God---------------------Deuteronomy 5:26---Lord of life, alive Sovereign
Lord is There(Jehovah-Shammah)---Ezekiel 48:35---Present with His people
Lord is my banner (Jehovah-Nissi)-----Exodus 17:15--Victorious, leads us in triumph
Lord my God-------------------Psalm 86:12---------Deep personal relationship with Adonai
Master----------------------------2 Timothy 2:21------Lord and Leader
Maker of all things-------Jeremiah 10:16--------Designer of everything.. All-Wise
Prince of Peace------------Daniel 8:25------------Highest and Greatest of all
Spirit of Grace---------------Hebrews 10:29-------Gives mercy and forgiveness
Spirit of Christ-----------------Romans 8:29----------Elevates Christ, indwells believers
Spirit of Life--------------------Romans 8:2-----------Gives life, Gives freedom
Spirit of the Lord-------------Micah 3:8-------------Gives Power, Transforms
Sun of Righteousness--------Malachi 4:2---------Holy Heals
Wonderful Counselor-------Isaiah 9:6-------------Helps believers deal with all situations.
Janie, HE can handle your fears.... This doesn't even touch the tip of the iceburg for who HE is and all that HE is capable of.. Prasie God.. Trust Him.
Love in Christ, Carla
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Permalink Reply by stephanie on
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God so love the world he gave his only be son that we may be save.The word of God says; remember therefore from whence thou art fallen,and repent, do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. Revelation chapter 2:6. God knows the heart just pray and repent daily.
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