All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
S.O.A.P. 6
Greetings all,
I will continue to try something on TheNET. I would like to see if we can engage in a Bible study using the forums. I hope to simulate a small group setting, but realize that there will be lag time. Here are the parameters that we will work with ... and this is open to everyone.
1) We are attempting to work our way through the gospel of John.
2) We will not tolerate negative comments made about a person or persons.
3) We are using the S.O.A.P. approach which = Scripture - Observation - Application - Prayer.
... 3a) Scripture text from the Gospel of John using KJV (no copyright attached)
... 3b)Observations about the particular text. What is being said, what is going on, who is involved and what might be the points being made?
... 3c) Application of the text/teaching to our lives today.
... 3d) Prayer pertaining to that which we have sought to discern.
4) It is appropriate to ask questions along the way.
5) I operating as the facilitator and teacher of this online group/class, but want the open participation of others.
6) At the end of each week (Friday's) I will close the current one and start a new one.
This weeks discussion:
Joh 3:10-21 KJV Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? (11) Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. (12) If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? (13) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. (14) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: (15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. (16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (19) And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. (20) For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. (21) But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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One of the things we see that is really astounding in Scripture is the times God takes the weak and makes them a giant in the faith. We see God so often doing great exploits through those who were so weak. Even the great Abraham showed times of weakness. These great acts of faith through these was so much more than a person living in strength. How often did God take a person at his weakest moment and accomplishes glorious acts.
We serve a great God! Even when we fail, God shows Himself glorious.
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Permalink Reply by Richard L. Broch, Sr. on
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Hi Amanda,
I'm sorry I haven't made myself clear..............
I firmly believe that we, or anybody, are not, or cannot be, saved by works to impress Almighty God.
And once a person receives that measure of faith by hearing ( Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God....)....the next step in the Lord's process is ( We are saved by grace through faith, and not that of ourselves. It is the gift of God).
And finally, works are not necessary to keep our salvation. Once truly saved, always truly saved.
If a person loses their salvation.........they probably didn't have it to start with.
Amanda, I knew we have been in agreement all along..............
Grace and Peace.......and goodnight.
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There is only one truth and that is our Lord Jesus Christ. He who believes in truth comes to Jesus. He that does evil hates the truth. Those who do not believe are condemned by the Commandments of God. Those who believe are not condemned. These are beautiful words. Jesus did not come to condemn us but to save us. He paid a very heavy price for that right, power and authority. Our faith in Him frees us from all condemnation. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ by faith. The prophets longed to see this day. They wrote of this day but did not completely understand it.
Jesus is establishing this great Gospel of salvation by grace through faith. Those who believe in Him are saved and granted eternal life. Those who do not believe are condemned. When we come into the light, we show that any good deeds are wrought in God. All goodness proceeds from God.
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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According to verse 18, does it mean the world and everyone in it have already been judged? I know there will be a final judgment, but is there a judging of people going on now, based upon the cross, even though not everyone hears the gospel, which is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, and is that, in itself, also a judgment on those who never hear? Are all judged already based on belief or unbelief? I know all are born lost and spiritually dead. God awakens some and makes them spiritually alive. Verse 18 seems to say some are already judged for not believing, after being enlightened about Jesus. I'd like to believe as long as there is breath in the body, then there is hope for someone.
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Permalink Reply by Seek on
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There's a verse or more than one perhaps which says God turned them over to their passions. To me that means He stopped trying to convict them. But it doesn't mean that they won't hear the Word at some point and start to believe even though their hearts hardened and wanted nothing to do with God for a time. If that were the case I would not be here.
There's also a passage that everyone knows of God, even without hearing the Gospel, because it is written on the hearts and can be seen in creation. Since God accredited righteousness to those with faith in Him, He's not an unjust God. He knows if people truly feel a conviction and shrug it off and if convicted yet unaware of the Gospel of Christ, who still had faith in God. As Jesus IS God, perhaps the "whosoever believes in Him" isn't so hard to understand for those who have not heard the Gospel.
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Seek,
The knowledge of God in that passage (if you are referring to Romans 1) does not refer to a saving light or saving knowledge. They simply have an inner awareness that there is a God and that there are things that are right and wrong, but due to sin and being spiritually dead this awareness is vague at best and not enough to have faith n God unto salvation. The same Book of Romans Paul explains that salvation requires the gospel and that someone must be sent in order for them to hear. Going back to the passage you reference we also find two important things. First is that it is speaking past tense and secondly that because of their rebellion in the past he gave them over to a depraved mind (Romans 1:21-32). From this we can also understand that this passage implies that the knowledge was lost (or at minimum greatly changed) today.
Question: Without the gospel that brings knowledge of Jesus, His death and resurrection, what are the people placing their faith in to be saved when you state "who still had faith in God"?
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I am asking God then to show me the truth of this because in my understanding if what you say is true it isn't lining up for me. First God is just and He doesn't punish one for the sins of their father yet if I'm to believe God gave future man over whether they hear the Gospel or not because of the future generation, that is holding the sins of our fathers against us. Another reason is that God is unwilling that ANY should perish and that one is present tense. Being unwilling I cannot see that He would not provide for the Gospel to be heard by those who who seek to do right just because others don't go out and preach it or because future generations turned from it.
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Did Adam have a sin nature or was man changed after the fall?
Are you born with a sin nature? Is this not part of the fall and is part of God's judgment?
We are condemned because of our own sin, but we are born with a sin nature because of the fall and will sin. We are all guilty. Our only hope is Jesus and His work for us.
God is not wanting any to perish and that is why He sent His Son to die on the cross, but one is completely lost (dead in sin) apart from coming to saving faith in Jesus Christ.
Many hope upon hope that there is a way out of death to life apart from the gospel. The concept usually starts with a flawed understanding that assumes man is unfairly judged if he never hears the gospel and is given a "chance" to be saved. The truth is man starts life spiritually dead and will sin (because he is spiritually dead and has a sin nature). God's judgment on mankind is death (which includes spiritual separation from Him). We deserve death ... but for grace we would have no hope. We do not deserve forgiveness or life, but through the gospel message (the work of Christ enlightened by the Holy Spirit) we can find Him and find life in Him. The Lostness of Man is not a popular doctrine today, but is is a fundamental truth regarding man's condition ... which is total depravity (keeping in mind that the standard for righteousness and depravity is not man, but God).
Those who never hear the gospel do not incur a greater sentence ... they remain in the state into which they (like us) were born. Only the twice born will see life and only in Jesus is this life available ... and only through the gospel do we find the truth that sets us free.
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Seeing that we are completely spiritually dead before we are made spiritually alive (aside from receiving illumination) then there is absolutely no way that any of us have contributed or could ever contribute one thing to our salvation, before or after new birth. This also has been an area where I just don't know what to really believe. Obedience is important as evidence of salvation but should we draw our assurance from it that we are saved?
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There can be no obedience to Christ that matters before salvation. One could follow a religious code, but that will not and cannot save you. Once saved there is an expectation of the child of God to grow and part of that growth is obedience ... coming into alignment with God and demonstrating a Christ-likeness that will become clearer as we mature. Our assurance is and will always be in Him, but our lives need to become a mirror of His which includes surrender to the will of the Father in our lives. If one proclaims Christ and then chooses to retain control of their own life (destiny) this gives us good reason to pause and question the validity of their profession.
The maturity process must always be factored in, but growth must be taking place. This growth will be at varying degrees from person to person, bt growing none-the-less.
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