All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
REGENERATION?
Does regeneration occurs before we are saved or after? If we receive the Holy Spirit after we are saved, how can regeneration occurs before we are saved? Yet, God draws us to Christ.
If we can't come to Christ on our own, then we need a regenerated heart to do it.
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Permalink Reply by dean burrows on
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I hear you David yet I am still being told This all happened in God's plan. He have given me the impression God created satan and man not only with the ability to sin but also the knowledge (plan) that they would. Why? My understanding is God is love He wouldn't want sin.
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Good questions Dean,
The questions you are bringing up have been looked at by some of the most brilliant minds the world has known. St. Augustine, RC Sproul, St. Aquinas, Luther, the Apostle Paul, Moses etc...
Genesis 18:25 Far be it from you to do such a thing--to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"
Job 8:3 Does God pervert justice? Does the Almighty pervert what is right?
Romans 3:5 New International Version (©1984)
But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.)God had no problem killing everyone on earth with a flood nor taking credit for it. Our God is love and so much more. All His attributes are active at the time He does something. He is always Love, Holy, Just, all knowing etc... Simultaneously.
Does God will evil to exist? Yes, of course. If God did not will for evil to exist, He could have created us in a million different ways, other than how we are now. God did not will evil to exist directly by creating evil, for He is holy, but being able to create us in a state of glorification, as we will be in heaven and the new heaven and earth (we won't be able to sin, yet we will be free to chose), He chose not to create us as we will be. He created angels and humans with the ability to fall, knowing that they would fall. That leads me to believe that the fall is God's will, for it would have never happen if God did not will it to happen. God is establishing eternal principals for His heavenly and earthly creation, mainly; He wants us to know the consequences of obeying him and not obeying Him. He also gets glory for saving us from our fallen condition, by His grace alone and He gets glory as well from passing judgment over a creature that was given liberties and the ability to chose, but rejected him, because they love their sin too much.
Some people in the family have serious issues with anyone stating that God wills evil to exist, so I say, simply replace the word will, with “He allows” or He is ok for now with the existence of evil, for it works into His overall plan.
God created Lucifer, a beautiful angel, who became by his own choice Satan (God's adversary). God created humanity, who by their own choice decided to disobey. God knew that would happen before the foundation of the heavens and the earth, but His plan is perfect and Holy. We only see part of it with our finite mind, so we may think it unfair, but is not. God is good and there is no evil in Him. His plan is perfect.
Blessings
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Ok so now the next question God know exactly what we will do and it is known long before we have a chance to choose so therefore learn as we might seek God's truth as we might stay in God's will as we might all the statements made about how to enter the Fathers Kingdom statements made by Jesus they are all futile because if a person is going to hell that person cannot change that God has already planned that persons end . That is what I take from what you are saying .
For me Genesis 6 makes a very different statement God yes has the ability to wipe out man but in that account I see He had trouble with the fact that it was necessary.
The idea that the evil in and outside this world is in God's will is nothing more than the age old Adam excuse for what is being done. That woman YOU gave me. Very simple words but wow what a meaning.
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Again Dean - I appreciate your questions, they are good questions.
All the statements that call for us to chose life and not death, to enter through the narrow road, to repent and believe are not futile at all.
Kept in context, some are made to the Church, some are made to a dying world in general. Each verse would have to be looked at individually to determine it's one meaning within the context.
There are verses that are for sure calling the unbelieving world to repentance, to believe in Christ and those are not futile at all. God has known the Church/his own, those He will save by His sovereignty will and for his good pleasure from before the foundation of the world, but the offer of salvation is real and for all of humanity to take.
How else would God judge the world, if the world was not given a way out of their condition? God provided a sacrifice and keeps no one from coming to him. His arms are open, as He wills for all men to be saved, but no human being comes to Him unless God regenerates them.
A whole doctrine call previnient grace has been formulated to accommodate men's ability to choose, to explain the mechanics behind the salvation act. The majority believe that God's Spirit convicts us of our sin, for lack of a better word, this conviction opens up a window of time in a person’s life to believe or denied Christ, to resist him. it is true that when men are confronted with the truth, there is a conviction by the power of the word and the Spirit, but unless God awakens them, they chose death. Fallen men are unable to choose live apart from the work of God.
God has made a real way out, but we will not take it, for we are lost in sin. God rightly holds us accountable for our choices. We are responsible for not choosing Him, when we have natural revelation (the heavens and earth declare the glory of God) and the written word, God's revealed will.
The offer of salvation is not futile my friend. It is God's love demonstrated to an ungrateful creature and the means by which the creature will be judge.
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.
We know through scripture that God sent His son to die for the Church, which is all over the world, but the offer of salvation is made to all as well.
Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. - Ephesians 5:25-27
What have you that you did not receive?" (1 Cor. 4:7), and, "But by the grace of God I am what I am" (1 Cor. 15:10).
God saves us from His own wrath. He hates sin.
"If you say to me then, that at the cross Christ only accomplished for me what he accomplished for those who will suffer hell for their sins, then you strip the death of Jesus of its actual effective accomplishment on my behalf, and leave me with what? An atonement that has lost its precious assuring power that my sins were really covered and the curse was really lifted and the wrath of God was really removed. That's a high price to pay in order to say that Christ tasted death for everyone in the same way." JP
Do you see the picture of God's amazing Love, grace and justice?
>>The idea that the evil in and outside this world is in God's will is nothing more than the age old Adam excuse for what is being done. That woman YOU gave me. Very simple words but wow what a meaning.
Not at all my brother. It is truth. Evil serves a purpose in God's plan for now, but His plan also states that He will do away with sin for all of eternity. For now let's say that an all powerful God tolerates evil actions done by His creation for they serve a purpose, but they will answer to Him for their actions. we are morally responsible for our actions since God has provided a way out for everyone that has ever lived and will live.
My brother - I believe I had no say so in my Salvation, for God called me and chose me for salvation, not because of anything I done, but simply because He chose me. salvation is of the Lord. I am ok with that, but if you or many millions of My Family in Christ want to believe, due to scriptures, that we chose God once His Spirit convicted us of sin, that is ok with me, I mean, I believe that to be true as well, the difference is simply that I believe I chose God because first He chose me.
Blessings brother
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Oh oh David sorry that is not the difference at all I never once denied the fact that God had worked in my life what I deny and I seem to be hearing from you is that God forces Himself upon anyone. By all means God chooses to draw us. And David God did not create puppets He gave us the awesomwe gift of free will therefore the awesome ability of choice . God is not known to take His gifts back. He gives us every opportunity to use those gifts properly. Especially the gift of choice.
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Dean,
I have placed my replied to your latest post on the last page of the discussion.
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Permalink Reply by LucyP on
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Lucy, I was actually thinking of Cain, and how he killed Abel (Genesis 4)..
I'm sorry, my response must have been very confusing. Thank you for bringing clarity to the discussion. I will take more time in responding next time.
Blessings, Carla
LOL Carla, ahhh I see... no, it's fine... all good, as gets me to go back over things ;-) I was just checking as I haven't read all of my Bible yet, so wasn't sure if maybe there's something about it later, thanks sweetie x
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We must distinguish how we are using the word "regeneration". To regenerate something is to renew it, to make it new.
The word “regeneration” appears only twice in our Bible. Both times in the N.T., It was used once by our Lord in Matthew 19:28 and once by the Apostle Paul in Titus 3:5.
“Regeneration” is the translation of palingenesia, from palin (again) and genesis (birth). It means simply a new birth, a new beginning, a new order.
When the Apostle Paul used the word “regeneration,” he wrote, “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost” (Titus 3:5).
Regeneration then may be defined as an act of God whereby He bestows upon the believing sinner new life. This life is God’s own life, the imparting of His own nature. God Himself is the Source and Bestower of His life, so that believers are said to be “partakers of the Divine nature” (II Peter 1:4), “created in Christ Jesus” (Ephesians 2:10), “born of God” (John 1:13), “born again” (John 3:3, 7), “a new creation” (II Corinthians 5:17).
The renewing of the mind is a process by the washing of the word. A process also known as the sanctification process. A process done in us by the Holy Spirit, by God. God sanctifies us positionally, once and for all, at the time of being born again, but God then also enrolls us in the process of sanctification, which involves renewing our mind. We are not to be passive/inactive in this process, but rather we are told to be very active.
So Romans 12 is not talking about the regeneration we are looking at here, though the word could be use to describe what's our Lord is telling us in that chapter. The word would be attached a different meaning there though.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 1 Ti 2:3-6
In Timothy our Lord is simply revealing His heart to us. He wills that all men be saved. Yes, indeed our Lord does wish all men would come to Him. The problem is that not one man in the History of the world has ever come to Him, without the Lord first drawing that man to himself. Men love sin too much. Men are not being restrained by God, not to come, the offer of salvation is truly set before every person alive and that ever lived. But men will not come, unless God regenerates their Spirit. Then God gives the person faith to believe - Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast
The natural man is “dead in trespasses and sins . . . alienated from the life of God” (Ephesians 2:1; 4:18) because his iniquities have separated him from God (Isaiah 59:2). The need for being regenerated is universal. “There is none righteous, no, not one . . . For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:10, 23). “And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually” (Genesis 6:5). “The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one” (Psalm 14:2, 3). “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?” (Jeremiah 17:9). The best thing God can do for man is to bring him to a knowledge of his sin so that he will realize his need of being regenerated. Our Lord left no doubt as to the indispensable necessity of the new birth as a pre-requisite to entrance into the Kingdom of God.
God regenerates the person and gives them faith to believe, by His Grace and choice alone. Salvation is not of men, is a work of God.
Yes, I chose God, but God first chose me. Yes, I believed in God and received him into my life that glorious day, but God renewed me first, so I could see my sinful state and also seeing His amazing grace and beauty, I could not resist His effectual called. My creator renewed me and saved me from my dead (enslaved to sin) state I found myself to be in and I answered the calling. How could I not. It was an irresistible called; it was a called to be with my creator, who is full of Love and mercy. His love made it impossible for me to resist. How could I resist the Light? I could see that day for the first time, I was made a live that day.
The born again experience varies among our Christian family, some are radical experiences, while others are progressive, but the behind the scenes work of God is the same.
Blessings
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Dean you bring up good questions and topics with your comments.
You have hit the nail on the head. Bingo - Human response when confronted with the biblical doctrine of election is to find a way where we are left with a choice, because the only other option we think is that God force himself upon the subject. Nothing could be further from the truth, but tell me brother, even if that was the case, who are we to tell God what to do or what not to do with His creation. Would that make God unjust? Certainly not. Even if God did forced himself upon his creation, what is wrong with that, if what He is forcing upon them is good and holy, mercy and grace.
God does not however force himself, He does not have to, He is God and we are nothing in comparison to him. God gives us grace, when He makes us alive through regeneration so we can willfully come to him. I was lost and blind, but that moment I saw my iniquity and His love and I believed and chose God willingly. The outward call of preachers can be resisted, but not the inward call of God. what a blessed truth that is. The last thing I would have ever wanted that moment was the ability to resist God's amazing love and grace.
I pray that He intervenes in the heart of my love ones who do not know him. That He breaks their will and gives them grace, for their will is to do their own thing.
Your conclusions sound good, is appealing to the human flesh and logic, but God can do with His creation what He wants, when He wants. The good news for us is that we serve a Holy, just and perfect God, who does not break our will to make us do evil, but to help us live more abundantly.
We have multiple, too many examples in the word of God showing us God breaking man's will, to deny such a beautiful and blessed truth. God influences man's will as He wills.
Romans 9
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25 As he says in Hosea:
“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”[IGod indeed did not create puppets, hence the fall of man and Satan, but He does rescue those He rescues for His own purposes.
Check out this discussion on Free will : What is Free Will?
http://www.allaboutgod.net/forum/topics/what-is-free-will
Blessings to you brother.
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David I do not in any way disagree with God's abilities His sovereignty. The one thought I have here is the difference between angels and man. To know that difference I believe shows the awesome gift The Father gave us in the beginning. For man not only is it awesome it is also very dangerous.
I thank The Lord continually for the power of choice. More importantly I thank Him for His guidance His love and His sacrifice.
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Dean,
We differed in some of the order of salvation, but your Lord is my Lord. My God is your God and indeed He has given us the ability to choose.
Yes our God calls us from Genesis to Revelations to Choose life and not death. I appreciate your patience as we exchange our biblical understanding of the subject my brother.
Blessings
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Oh hey David thanks for the exchange. And by the way patience if you truely knew me it deffinateky isn' my patience. Praise The Lord for He gives a peace the world can not know. I hope to be able to grow and learn and most of all ask many more questions.
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