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Question: "Will there be a second chance for salvation after the Rapture?"
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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Carla,
I believe it happens at the 7th trumpet just before the seven bowls of God's wrath are poured out upon the earth. This is generally thought of as a pre-wrath theory.
Roy
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Carla,
I've got to go to my grandson's basketball game but here are some for starters:
Rv 11:15-18
15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:
"The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ,
and he will reign for ever and ever."
16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:
"We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign.
18 The nations were angry;
and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your saints and those who reverence your name,
both small and great —
and for destroying those who destroy the earth."
NIV
Rv 14:1-16
14 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.
6 Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth — to every nation, tribe, language and people. 7 He said in a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water."
8 A second angel followed and said, "Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great, which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries."
9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.
13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."
"Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."
14 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one "like a son of man" with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, "Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe." 16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested. NIV
1 Co 15:50-53
50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. NIV
Shortly after this, God's wrath is poured out upon the earth.
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Permalink Reply by Carla on
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Hi Roy,
This scripture 1Cor 35-53 is regarding our resurrected bodies and the point that the corruptible can not inherit the incorruptible...so we will be changed ..this results in the final victory over death. I guess the question here is 'When does this happen?'
This excerpt is taken from a book I am studying 'Footsteps of the Messiah' by Dr. Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum.
The event is said to happen at the time of the last trump. Both Midtribulationists and Posttribulationists try to identify this with the seventh trumpet of the Book of Revelation. But this cannot be what is meant by the last trump; at the time that 1 Corinthians was written, John had not written Revelation. The Corinthians would not have had any knowledge of seven trumpets. Yet it is evident from the fact taht Paul used the definite article the last trump that he expected the Corinthians to know what he was talking about. The only knowledge they would have had of trumpets are those spoken of in the OT, especially those of the Feast of Trumpets. The last Trump refers to the Feast of Trumpets and the Jewish practice of blowing trumpets at this feast each year. During the ceremony there are a series of short trumpet sounds concluding with one long trumpet blast, which is called the tekiah gedolah, the great trumpet blast. This is what Paul means by the last trump. As such, it says nothing concerning the timing of the Rapture; only that the Rapture, wnever it comes, will fulfill the Feast of Trumpets. This Trumpet is the same as the sound of the trump of God found in 1 Thes 4:16. In that passage, at the sound of the trumpet, the dead are raised as incorruptible and we, the living, will be changed.
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
This verse tells us that Christ will keep us (the church) safe from His wrath. So who are the tribulation saints being martyred for their faith? Where are the Church saints after Rev chapter 3?
Throughout the tribulation, saints are being killed on a massive scale. If these saints are church saints, then they are not being kept safe, and Rev 3:10 would be meaningless. But i believe we can hold on to that promise!
That's all for now.. it's time for sleep.. :-)
Blessings, Carla -
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Carla,
I am well aware of this teaching for I was taught it very strongly in my Bible college. However, saying Paul did not know is missing the entire point. It doesn't matter whether Paul knew or not. It only mattered that God knew. The existence of the seven trumpets have been there all the time. He just had not revealed that as yet. I have to ask you this question: how many bodily resurrections are there? Is there one, or are there two, three or even more?
You have to get all those who are saved by grace through faith that new resurrected body. I say there is only one. That is called the first resurrection. You don't want to be in the second one.
There is one event in Scripture but it is referred to many times. This teacher you are quoting has many resurrections. Jesus often talked of this event. The event I am talking about and find all over Scripture is the following one:
Mt 24:30-31
30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. NIV
- and also:
Rv 14:14-16
14 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one "like a son of man" with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, "Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe." 16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested. NIV
I believe these two are the same event. If you are looking for teachings supporting a pretrib rapture, you will find an enormous amount. I might be wrong but for me they don't answer the question of multiple resurrections. I see the Savior coming on the clouds of heaven calling out for His people. All His people will hear His voice and will go with Him.
There are some issues of grace involved here that we haven't even touched as of yet. Some think that missing the rapture will wake up those that just have not accepted Him yet. There is a number that only He knows of all His children. When that number is reached, it is over. That last preaching of His everlasting Gospel through the whole earth will gather in every single one of His own and then He will come to get us whether we have returned to dust or remain alive on this earth. That is the day we all get our brand new bodies. This is the event Daniel spoke of:
Da 7:13-28
13 "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
15 "I, Daniel, was troubled in spirit, and the visions that passed through my mind disturbed me. 16 I approached one of those standing there and asked him the true meaning of all this.
"So he told me and gave me the interpretation of these things: 17 'The four great beasts are four kingdoms that will rise from the earth. 18 But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and will possess it forever — yes, for ever and ever.'
19 "Then I wanted to know the true meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others and most terrifying, with its iron teeth and bronze claws — the beast that crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. 20 I also wanted to know about the ten horns on its head and about the other horn that came up, before which three of them fell — the horn that looked more imposing than the others and that had eyes and a mouth that spoke boastfully. 21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and defeating them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom.
23 "He gave me this explanation: 'The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it. 24 The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings. 25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time.
26 "'But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be handed over to the saints, the people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.'
28 "This is the end of the matter. I, Daniel, was deeply troubled by my thoughts, and my face turned pale, but I kept the matter to myself." NIV
Some teach a secret catching away of the saints before the tribulation. I can't find that in Scripture. When He comes on the clouds to get His people, the whole earth will see Him and mourn. They will see the One they have pierced but didn't follow. At the moment He appears, it will be too late to be saved. The complete number will be in and He will harvest His own. We will meet Him in the air. After that, salvation as we know it is over.
There will be those who make it through to the end but they will not be resurrected. (At least this is what I believe.) They will continue to populate the earth and the earth's population will explode. We will reign with Him.
Here is one point concerning faith. Once people see Him in the clouds the idea of faith will be a mute point. I do not find in Scripture a secret catching away, however I find this event all over the place.
Now, when you talk about a pre-trib rapture, are you saying that is the first resurrection? Or are you saying that is a secret catching away of the saints and is not the event spoken of by Paul in Thessalonians and Corinthians?
Roy -
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Greetings all,
My two cents: I have looked at the various views regarding the rapture. I have held 3 different ones over the course of time and currently hold to the pre-wrath. The exact timing of the rapture is IMO unknown. I see the ratpure and the Second Coming as two different events. The question, from my position, is how much time will there be between the two events? Two things stick out regarding the pre-wrath prior to the Second Coming position. The rapture is for the church, the bride and God has to retrun to His work with the Jews to fulfill prophecy and finish His work with them saving the remnant. The second will not occur until the first is accomplished. Thus we see two groups of people being saved, the bride and the remnant. The remnant is saved during the tribulation after the rapture. This leads to another question that is able to be answered by the remnant. Who are the ones on earth that the bride rules over with Christ for the 1000 years if not the remnant? This leads to another question that is able to be answered by the remnant. Who are the ones that rise up at the end of the 1000 years to battle against Christ after Satan is released? The possible answer is the children of the remnant who have not personally made a decision for Christ during their lifetime. This group will live for a 1000 (not each person, but the group) under the Theocratic rule of Christ.
So, to Ron's original question, yes there will be a period, though potentially brief, for the remnant to be saved.
Note: There is a lot of speculation regarding the end. So much of prophecy cannot be fully understood until it is taking place and being fulfilled.
Food for thought from my perspective.
Lord Bless,
LT
TheNET Coordinator
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LT,
I agree on the part about the pre-wrath rapture. I believe that is also synonymous with the resurrection. We will be with Him in the air for a short time before He comes back to the earth. He will bring us with Him. The resurrection marks the end of salvation by grace through faith. No one else can become a child of God in that sense. During His wrath virtually the entire world's population but as in the flood there will be a remnant left. I am not sure that it is all Jews. The saints will rule over the remaining population. With Christ being in charge, there will not be the hindrance of a population explosion and by the end of 1,000 years there will be a great population on the earth. Satan will be released and will succeed in getting some to follow him. I do not believe the Jews will. They will have finally learned their lesson. I am not sure what happens to these that don't follow after Satan. I do not believe they will become a part of the bride. I agree all this is a lot speculation and we won't know for sure until it happens. However, the saints will have plenty to do to serve their Lord throughout all of eternity. He has a big plan for all those who believe on His name.
Today is the day of salvation. After the resurrection, it will be too late. This is speaking of salvation only in the sense of becoming a born again child of God. That can only be accessed by faith in Him. After the resurrection, I believe that is over.
This is a little of my two cents worth even though I am not sure that it is worth that much.
Roy
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Roy,
I don't have a lot of time to respond. I am heading to Tampa to celebrate my dad's 89th birthday.
Without getting into the fine points there is much we agree upon. There are so many things we cannot be sure of regarding the end times, and yet still have assurance of God's leading and His complete control in the matter.
I teach my POV and offer the alternatives to the group I pastor for them to see the various views. Then I teach the following. "Work as if the rapture is going to happen tomorrow and prepare as if you are going to go through the full tribulation."
Lord Bless,
LT
TheNET Coordinator
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Amen and amen LT.
Enjoy your trip bro, don't worry I will try to help Ron and Roy behave hahaahaha J/K guys. Ohhh man I crack myself up, 'cause those two beautiful men of God bless me so much.
Blessings
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Permalink Reply by forgiven on
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(Quote) For the life of me, I just cannot see Gentiles accepting Christ after the Rapture.
What about those of the 'Jewish' faith? Will the Jews be given a chance to accept Christ after the rapture? Will Jews who believed in God.....previous to Jesus arrival be given a chance? Will God's own prophets who lived 'before Jesus'...be given a chance? Noah, Moses, Abraham, Elijah, Jeremiah, Daniel etc....never had the opportunity to accept 'JESUS'. They were not fortuneate to even know His Name.....per se. So.....why would Gentiles not be given a chance? Jesus made clear that there would no longer be separation between Jews and Gentiles, an 'equal inheritance'.
This being said, I do not necessarily understand the 'timing of' 'the rapture', or whether the tribulation is 'pre-, post-, mid- or varied combination 'of'.
What I 'do' know......is that: if the Lord tells me to "Go out and get them"....I will do as He commands.....whether or not 'little me' thinks it is the 'correct' thing to do.
Picture this: Noah has shut the door, and it is pouring God-awful rain outside.....everybody inside is nice and comfy and dry....and God tells Noah to open the door......for 'one lost sheep'. Should Noah open up? Or better yet.......should God destroy Ninevah because Jonah is angry and cannot wrap his little mind around the concept of mercy?
(Wow, this bible is so awesome)
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Hey Rob,
You make some good points. I will highlight some portions of your message and answer immediately after.
>>Will the Jews be given a chance to accept Christ after the rapture?
I think all the participants here agree that the remnant of the Jews will be called home after the Rapture. What some do not agree with is if Gentiles will still have a chance to be saved.
>>Will God's own prophets who lived 'before Jesus'...be given a chance?
Those that were saved before Jesus died and resurrected were Justified by faith as we are. They looked to the coming messiah for their salvation. We look back in history and have faith in the finished work of Christ. Those who were saved under the old covenant knew they would be joining God's people in what they called Abraham's bosom.
Luke 16
22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side.
“David therefore sought God on behalf of the child. And David fasted and went in and lay all night on the ground. And the elders of his house stood beside him, to raise him from the ground, but he would not, nor did he eat food with them. On the seventh day the child died. And the servants of David were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they said, “Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spoke to him, and he did not listen to us. How then can we say to him the child is dead? He may do himself some harm.” But when David saw that his servants were whispering together, David understood that the child was dead. And David said to his servants, “Is the child dead?” They said, “He is dead.” Then David arose from the earth and washed and anointed himself and changed his clothes. And he went into the house of the LORD and worshiped. He then went to his own house. And when he asked, they set food before him, and he ate. Then his servants said to him, “What is this thing that you have done? You fasted and wept for the child while he was alive; but when the child died, you arose and ate food.” He said, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept, for I said, ‘Who knows whether the LORD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?’ But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.”” 2 Samuel 12:16-23
Blessings beloved
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