All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others

Question from an Atheist.

Jeremiah 17:9
King James Version (KJV)
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Should you trust your heart in this case?

Romans 10:9 ...if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

So explain how the same book teaching you not to trust your heart also uses that same concept as the key to salvation. It seems I am required to "believe in my heart" but then admonished as foolish for trusting it.

*********************

How would you answer this question?

0 members like this

▶ Reply to This

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on April 3, 2013 at 2:46pm

We no longer have the same heart once we are transformed. God does not just fix us making us a little better, He changes us making us holy and rightoeus because He is holy and righteous.

2Co 5:14-21 NIV84 For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. (15) And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again. (16) So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. (17) Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! (18) All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: (19) that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. (20) We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. (21) God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

We also know that the conviction and affirmation comes from the Holy Spirit who lives in us who are born again.

There is a term not heard too much today, but it is the "transformed life."

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Carla on April 3, 2013 at 3:29pm

LT, Thanks for this.. here's his response (I've removed most of the condescending nature of the comment):

So at what point does your heart move from being foolish to wise? Is it just before...maybe just after? This Romans passage is the most fundamental concept in Christianity so why do we need to skip that and move to another letter to a completely different church? What if the other verses are right and you are still foolish to trust your heart? All of this is about the synonyms of belief, faith, trust...things for which we have no measurable and demonstrable evidence. We interpret this etherial realm with our "kardia" which, as has been biblically proven in this post, is foolish and deceitful above all things

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on April 3, 2013 at 4:02pm

The transformed life is demonstratable, but not to the satisfaction of an athiest.

Several things before I go back to Romans.

1) The demonstration of a changed heart is found in the answer to the following question: Do you love Jesus? Not just do you like Him or are appreciative of what He has done for us, but do you love HIM? We can only love Him because He first loved us and this love must include the brethren (1 John 4:7-10). We also know that this basic love includes a belief in the one in Whom we love (Heb. 11:6). For without a belief we cannot love Him or please Him, but to do both requires a changed heart effectuated by God in us.

2) Repentance is required, but repentance is much more than a turning from sin and turing to God. It does include this, but is much more. Repentance is a change of mind and not simply a change from, for example, one red was my favorite color and now I like purple. We are talking about a rewiring in our thinking, an awakening. Again, the unbeliever cannot understand this. It is absolutely foriegn to them as it was to us prior to it occuring. Therefore, repentance is a process and not just a moment in time where we ask Jesus to forgive us. The Holy Spirit is at work in us long before we accept Christ as Savior (there are potentially exceptions to this, but the norm is seen over a period of time). God awakens the person revealing Himself to them and reveals who they are and their great need to them in the process. There are some who wil choose darkness over light even after they are exposed to the light (John 3:19).

I will post the Roman's response seperately.

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on April 3, 2013 at 4:20pm

Point him to Romans 2:29 and Romans 10:8. Ask him what he thinks Romans 10:8 means in context with Romans 10:9-13.

I will give a more detailed overvire of Romans as time permits.

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on April 3, 2013 at 4:33pm

Romans 1:17 - The gospel of rightouesness (that bring salvation, Rom. 1:16) is by faith and faith is a gift. Faith cannot be worked up, God has to work in us in order for us to believe and be transformed.

Romans 1:18-20 - Creation reveals God, but that does not save man. This revelation simply leaves man without excuse, but does not empower them to believe.

Romans 1:32 - Knowing God's decree is not enough.

Romans 5:5 - "God has poured out His love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has give us." Does God reside in a wicked heart?

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Carla on April 3, 2013 at 5:56pm

Thanks LT, I've passed it on... Praying that God will soften their hearts...

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Carla on April 4, 2013 at 6:54am

LT,

here's his response: This is really important to the crux of the issue I believe. As you might have already suspected I am fully aware of the tenants of the Christian concept of salvation. The problem is that the core of all of this is your "kardia". It is your inner self, your soul, your mind...the center of your emotional and spiritual that has to be moved by god. That core is the same thing we are warned countless times, and rightly so, how deceitful it is and foolish it is to trust it.

The conviction you feel in your kardia is exactly the same as a Mormon's or a Muslim's or a Scientologist's or a Voodooist's. They will say exactly the same things that you do about how only a "true believer" can know the real truth. They will point to their ancient texts and tell us how undeniably true it is. With all the fire and fervor in their soul they believe. I think we can both agree that their kardia has been deceived. Is it not possible that your's has as well?

The passage in Romans 10 is covering the subject of evangelizing Israel. The author is explaining that the Jews were attempting to create their own version of righteousness which was apart from God's. Verse 8 is compelling the reader to share their faith with the Jews. To bring the salvation message (verses 9 & 10) to Jews and Gentiles alike. So this passage is about a Christian's responsibility to proselytize.

However, my point still stands and that's that the key to salvation is believing/trusting with this foolish and deceitful kardia.

*********************

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Carla on April 4, 2013 at 7:35am

I've already responded to him.. but I'd like to hear your response also when you have some time. Thanks. :-)

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on April 4, 2013 at 2:54pm

Romans 10 is speaking to much more than just the Israelites. He metions them, but in third person. He is talking about them, not to them. The Book of Romans is written to believers as stated in Romans 1:7. Paul opens chapter 10 by identifying part of the reason they are blind to the truth. They sought a righteousness by works through the keeping of the law. Paul quickly identifies that our righteousness is apart from the law for everyone who believes (v.4). In verse 8 Paul clearly identifies that the Word is near you, it is in your heart and mouth. He goes on to say that it is the word of "faith." God has planted faith in the heart and this faith enables verse 9 to be expressed by the person. They do not do verse 9 to get saved, it is because they are saved that they can express verse 9. The point of verse 13 is not that if you call on Him you will be saved, but rather those who call on Him are saved.

Then Paul gives us a clear picture in verses 14-17. This all goes back to Romans 1:16. Faith comes from hearing the message.

This person asks how we can know. There are several key components but I am sure he is not open to them. This exercise is not about him finding faith, but trying to convince us that we are foolish for trusting in Jesus. But, for the sake of discussion let's exaine a couple of things.

1) The resurrection is evidence. If Jesus did not rise from the dead then our faith is futile. With out covering all of the info that is readily out there one can study and follow the evidence given by Gary Habermas, Ravi Zacherias, Josh McDowell or Lee Strobel. Or one could study the passages and realize that the disciples would have known the truth about Jesus resurrection. If they did not see a risen Lord then 11 men went to their deaths knowing that they were dying for a lie.

2) The accuracy of the Bible.

3) The evidence of changed lives, meaning our own changed life. Do we love Jesus? Do we begin to hate sin?

4) Is there an assurance that we know Him? You will find that in most religions that people do not know if they will make their God happy enough to get in. They have no assurance of salvation. In Christianity we have a God who did for us that which we could not do for ourselves. He is not waiting for us to get good enough (Romans 5:8). He died for us and has poured out His Spirit into our hearts (Romans 5:5).

Lastly, for the sake of discussion, if I am wrong I have lost nothing. As hard as it is for some to believe as a believer I have not given up anything except things of this world that are growing strangely dim. I enjoy life and do not feel like I am missing out on anything, or am deprived in some way. On the other hand if he is wrong ... hell awaits. Food for thought.

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Seek on April 4, 2013 at 6:40am

I'd say it's like forgiveness. God commands us to forgive. Just because we don't feel we've forgiven isn't the determining factor. We must choose to say we forgive and God will do the rest. We must choose to confess Jesus is Lord. If we believe enough to make that confession, God will do the rest in our hearts. We have to take the step He commands. The rest is His to do the work in our hearts as our own hearts deceive us. Just as believing we are doubting or have little faith, and yet keep holding on. Our own hearts deceive us into thinking we doubt because we let our feelings/heart, get in the way of the confession/belief.