Question from an Atheist.

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Permalink Reply by Carla on April 4, 2013 at 9:47am

Yes Chris.. Indeed. :-)

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Permalink Reply by Amanda on April 4, 2013 at 11:28am

Carla, the way I understand it is that we never trust in the heart to be saved. We trust in God to save us and not in the heart to save us. We hear the Word of God and faith comes by hearing. Then God changes the heart once the gift of faith is present. In the OT before people were born again, they were able to trust in God with their heart. Proverbs 3:5 says trust in God, not in the heart. The fact is belief has to come before the heart is changed. The belief does not originate in the heart of a person. It must enter the heart of the person. The belief is a gift given by God and originates in God and is given to us. This person will never be able to trust in God with all his heart until he has been given the gift of faith. This is my current understanding but I'm still learning. Faith comes by hearing and we know what needs to be heard. We trust in God, not in the heart. So the heart can be deceitful but we are not trusting it to save us. Does that make sense? It is with the heart that you believe and are justified but it is a supernatural work and is not coming out of your heart but going into it. We receive Jesus. It begins with the light being turned on to awaken the sleeper. The belief goes in and we are justified, the confession comes out only after going in and then we are saved. Saved by grace through faith, both gifts.

Romans 10 NIV
5 Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.”[a] 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’”[b] (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’”[c] (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,”[d] that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[e] 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”[f]

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Permalink Reply by Carla on April 4, 2013 at 12:28pm

Very good response Amanda. 

 

I particularly like this "The belief does not originate in the heart of a person. It must enter the heart of the person."

Blessings, Carla

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on April 4, 2013 at 1:31pm

I only have a moment, and that is the point of Romans 10:8 that leads to being able to do 10:9.

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Permalink Reply by Amanda on April 4, 2013 at 2:10pm

Lol. That's probably all I really needed to say. Being born again is as great a miracle as the Resurrection. Jesus and the Word of God are illumination -- the light. If people have any choice regarding becoming born again my belief is that it happens when the light is visible. At that time they can choose to enter the light more and more or reject it. This person has not yet chosen the light over darkness but is asking questions and yet seems to be recoiling from the light. If there's any choice in being born again it probably has to do with our reaction to the light and how much we love darkness more than it. Scripture seems to teach that sin begets sin. People get deeper and deeper into darkness. This probably happens after the light has been enormously and constantly rejected and possibly there is a point of no return but it's not for us to decide who has reached that point.

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Permalink Reply by Carla on April 4, 2013 at 2:44pm

That's true... so we keep them talking as long as we can..  Bless you Amanda.

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Permalink Reply by Richard L. Broch, Sr. on April 4, 2013 at 10:17pm

Hi Carla,

Interesting discussion you have going here.

Some pointed posts recorded so far. I wholeheartedly agree with what L.T. and Amanda have said.

And of course, the other camp has a limited, narrow offensive against our belief.....regardless of how many tons of truthful Scripture we introduce. That's o.k., we'll just deal with that, right?.

 

Seems to me, they're basing their whole attack with the "kardia" being the principle star player.

That's right....that the heart is the center and life to a person, and his or her beliefs.

There is another supporting player in this process.....that doesn't receive much hype....and that's the mind. 

I like to think - The mind is the battleground for the heart.

Jesus says the greatest commandment includes: "You must love the Lord your God, with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.

 

Also some other Scripture that spells out a variance in the two are = I Chronicles 28:9, Hebrews 8:10, 10:16, and James 4:8.

 

Now, in Romans 10:9, could the mouth actually be the mind sounding off? I think that's what Amanda meant about

saying "The belief does not originate in the heart of the person.............And I totally agree with her. I think that the heart gets the news from the mind (mouth) and processes it.

 

Now, let's look at James 4:8, NASB, " Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded." (double-minded = Gr. dipsuchos, soul, mind inconsistant, wavering).         Sounds to me like this type of person is undecided about making a decision to come to the Lord......

because their heart is not commited yet.

 

So, all this is to say (sorry for the lengthy post, Tam)..........as L.T. says, that Romans 10;8, prompts 10:9.... which then activates 10:10. Amen. My point - the mind plays a major role in all this.

So Carla, you might ask your debating friend if he has any thoughts regarding the mind process RE: total belief in Almighty God.........?

 

Grace and Peace.

 

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Permalink Reply by Carla on April 5, 2013 at 9:52am

This is very good Richard.. Thank you for responding.

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Permalink Reply by Carla on April 6, 2013 at 6:36am

Wholehearted,

 

You raise a valid point.  Let me just say this.

Firstly, we cannot convert anyone.  The Father draws them.  AND--Jesus surely doesn't need more converts..  We're going for lock, stock and barrel.. fully devoted and fully living for God and His Glory.

Secondly, quite often then are being drawn and don't even know it.

Third, when they are being drawn, many of them have questions.

Fourth, we are to have an answer to everyone for every circumstance for the hope that is in us.

Fifth, sometimes there is an intellectual blockage for people...those blocks can be broken down when we respond in a gentle quiet spirit which is humble.

Sixth, I agree with you absolutely--preaching 'hell' to them doesn't work, I also know that from personal experience.  Preaching the gospel is what works.. Christ born, suffered died and rose again to defeat sin and death which all humans have inherited due to the original sin of Adam and Eve.  Jesus' sacrifice satisfies divine wrath against sinners.  Preaching God's Holiness and perfect nature is very important.

Seventh, An atheist can't believe God loves them, because they deny His existence.  So--some may say what's the point of even talking to them then?  Well, I say it matters because I know God exists and He loves them.  They need to hear the gospel.  I share my testimony.. 'I was blind and now I can see, and I'm changed because of it.'

Eight, If I can answer other questions on the road to some possibly believing and submitting to Jesus and trusting in Him, I will do my best with God's help and the help of the church...  hence my post here. 

Nine, The church is sadly ill equipped for evangelizing.... This is a safe environment to answer difficult questions which we might be faced with elsewhere.

One more thing regarding your friend.. It sounds like she's not an atheist because she did acknowledge God.  Sometimes when people live in a life of abuse particularly with an abusive father, they have a hard time accepting God's love.  God can work with that too and break through.. perhaps your friend is simply on her journey...since she's alive we know God is still working in her life.  I came from an abusive past and had a hard time accepting God's Love, but God broke through the lies and now I am confident of His Love and I trust in Him completely..  God is not done with your friend yet. :-)

 

Blessings, Carla

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Permalink Reply by RoyW on April 7, 2013 at 3:38am

Carla,

A question could be the verb "believe." Is that an action or being verb? Christians believe both ways. Some think it is something we do while others believe it is something we are or a state of being. The atheist is interpreting it as an action verb. I think it sometimes is used in both ways. For instance, when we are told to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as the jailer was in Acts 16 that appears to be a universal call to our world to take action.

Those who believe that salvation requires us to do say we must believe. That is true. We must believe. But believing is a state of being. It is not something we do. It is more of something we are. Until one enters that state of being, he could never understand it. The heart is deceiving. That comes as a result of the fall. What redeems us is this state of believing. You either have it or you don't. I'm not sure of why or how but I do understand that faith has to be something that is given. Some people believe God made Adam and Eve at the beginning of creation. Others don't. There is not much sense arguing with them as they don't believe. They don't believe in Noah and the flood. They don't believe in Jonah and the great fish. They simply do not believe.

Logically, it is silly to believe that a bunch of chemicals got together and formed life. Yet, many, many are beginning to believe that as an explanation of how we got here. They just can't wrap their minds around a supernatural God that has all power. It appears their minds are incapable of faith. Has God not given them faith? If so, why hasn't He? I believe the stories in the Bible. Why do I believe and others don't? Is it something that I have done? Why has He given me the ability to believe? Did I somehow earn this? Or, is it as they believe, I have a mental dependency on a god and this One is the best that has come around. Is it that I need to know there is life after death that I have this faith.

I have found the truth. I easily wrap my mind around a Creator God. The other explanation is obviously a lie. It is ridiculous to me. I believe His Word is true. I know it has come to us through man but I believe it is true. Am I smarter or less intelligent than this atheist? Neither - I believe and he doesn't. It is as simple as that. Believing saves us from our sin. Believing changes our lifestyles. The one that believes accepts God's moral standards. The one that does not believe will not completely accept those standards even though he may as a result of many believers being involved in the making of laws. He demands works, but accepts only those that come from faith.

The atheist cannot understand the concept of faith until he is granted faith. Explaining the heart to an atheist is like explaining in English a concept to a man that only understands Spanish. Since he doesn't understand faith, he cannot understand salvation, love, righteousness. heaven, creation and on and on. Sometimes in my math class, I will look out at the kids and get this blank look staring back at me. I begin to laugh and they say, "Why are you laughing"? After awhile as they keep listening, the concepts will dawn on them. The light comes on. Our prayer is that the light comes on in these hearts the things concerning God.

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Permalink Reply by Carla on April 7, 2013 at 5:55am

Yes Roy I agree.  Thanks for this...

you're a true teacher. ;-)

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Permalink Reply by RoyW on April 10, 2013 at 8:34am

Wholehearted,

Please forgive me for offending you. You have accused me of being self-righteous and condescending. The brunt of my statement is that it takes faith to believe and I think that is a gift. There is absolutely nothing in that concept that is self-righteous or condescending. I think you have misunderstood the concept. What part of that concept do you disagree with? Do you not believe that faith is a gift but something that can be learned? Do we believe we come to faith through a logical process? I would be interested to have you post the statement that you believe is self-righteous. I am probably the least self-righteous person you will know. I do not believe that any of us are righteous - no not one. I believe salvation is a gift and that we have done nothing to gain that. I give absolutely no credit to man. All who know me know that is true. I am as wicked as any individual you know. I am completely confident that my salvation  has everything to do with God and nothing to do with myself. However, I do have a thought process which I have openly presented. I await you to do more than accuse.

Blessings.

Roy

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