Question from a New member

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Carla on January 19, 2011 at 3:05pm

here's an older discussion that is somewhat related to this question also. ;-)

 

http://www.allaboutgod.net/forum/topics/why-are-you-a-christian?id=...

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by allen hawley on January 19, 2011 at 3:23pm

I am the member who posed this question, and I thank Carla for posting it where she thought it would be most beneficial. I know a lot of Christians who refuse to have logical discussions with atheists, and it most certainly clarifies non-belief within myself. I once believed there had to be a god, and I set out to prove it. In research I found that not to be the case. I am not trying to sway anyone's faith nor can I be swayed. My conclusions make perfect sense to me and I have freed myself from wonder. So why am I here? To fight God? ...... No! I consider myself a thinker without classification. I only wish to enhance my personal views on humanity. And hey, if my non-belief strengthens your belief, then we both win! Right? The world has never been at peace and all war is religious at its core, admitted or not. That is my realization in life and what I believe goes against every praised nature of God. And in my eyes, if one thing is false the truths cannot be believed. I welcome any questions and comments, and am sure to have some of my own. Thank you for allowing me to participate.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Carla on January 19, 2011 at 5:01pm

Allen,

 

I know a lot of Christians who refuse to have logical discussions with atheists, and it most certainly clarifies non-belief within myself.

I'm curious as to what you would classify as a logical discussion?  I can see why you would feel that you are justified in your non-belief if no Christians will talk to you..  but you have to understand that True Christians are given discernment for knowing when to continue in a discussion, or when to stop the discussion if it is not going anywhere, or it will be damaging.  Sometimes it is wise to discontinue when the conversation is going nowhere.

 

I once believed there had to be a god, and I set out to prove it. In research I found that not to be the case. I am not trying to sway anyone's faith nor can I be swayed.

Can a person actually prove there is a God?  Would that not seem to be an exercise in futility coming more from a place of pride, rather than humility?  It has 'I, I, I' written all over it.  The fact that there is a God is not about us,,rather it is all about Him, and HE does not need any one of us to prove He exists.  He is more than capable in all His Glory to present the realities of Himself through His Creation and Conscience of man...  i name these with my finite mind...incapable of truly understanding all of the ways in which He may present Himself as real and factual.

 

 I consider myself a thinker without classification. I don't know what you mean by this. :-) 

 

My conclusions make perfect sense to me and I have freed myself from wonder.

reading this makes me sad for you...it sounds like a hard heart.  It sounds like you have given up.  My recommendation is to go for a walk....and allow yourself to be held in wonder at the Creation that is surrounding you.  Study a flower--why do they smell? How does each petal grow?  What does it grow from?  We know it comes from a seed...how is that exactly?  How is it that an apple tree can grow from an apple seed...then grow blossoms...and from those blossoms grow more apples filled with seeds...which will grow more trees....and the cycle continues..  . Study an insect--where did their defences come from? How were they formed?..... How do you not see the wonder in this?  It seems that to lack the wonder is to be dead.

 

So why am I here? To fight God? ...... No! Certainly not..  You were made to worship Him and be in an intimate love relationship with Him that is two sided.  Not to be afraid of Him or to fight Him.

 

I only wish to enhance my personal views on humanity ...again..  i don't know what you mean by this.

 

The world has never been at peace and all war is religious at its core, admitted or not This is true.  It cannot be denied.  Jesus was not religious and Christians are not called to be religious either.  To say otherwise is to simply misunderstand what the bible says.  Unfortunately,  war will play a large part on the earth until the 'Prince of Peace' returns.  Jesus tells us this is so, and the state of the world proves it to be true.  The world is in a fallen broken state due to the sin that has plagued humanity and caused separation of humanity from God. 

 

That is my realization in life and what I believe goes against every praised nature of God. And in my eyes, if one thing is false the truths cannot be believed.

Please elaborate...i truly would like to go through this part by part with you, but i don't understand what you are saying.   I think you are saying 'How could there be a God when the world is so broken and filled with violence and despair...etc...'  Is that right?

 

Man is by nature sinful and separated from God with no hope of remedying that situation. But God, by His power, provided the means of man’s redemption in the death, burial and resurrection of the Savior, Jesus Christ. This sin is shown by the state of the world.  This sin has infected all of God's Creation...

This is a very big topic Allen, I anticipate that it will require some time to go through with you.  If you are open to that we can spend time doing it.  I am hopeful that others will jump in also. (that's why i wanted this in the forum)  The nature of the Christian family is that we are the body of Christ.  We function as a body in that each one brings their gifts, talents, knowledge and abilities to the discussion (in this case it is a discussion)...  There are no lone ranger Christians.

 

 I welcome any questions and comments, and am sure to have some of my own. Thank you for allowing me to participate.

Allen I'm not sure why you are here exactly, but I do think it is good to ask questions.  It is good that you are here, and as long as this discussion stays healthy and on topic we will be able to continue. 

 

Blessings, Carla

 

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on January 19, 2011 at 4:29pm

Fear of hell is a motivator to seek safety, but that alone will not cause a person to be saved (Lk. 16:19-31). One must experience the conviction of the Holy Spirit (Jn. 16:8-11). We are brought to repentance (change of mind). It is the Father who draws us to the Son and it is the Son who reveals the Father. Jesus is not only our Savior, He is our Redeemer. Then by grace through faith we experience salvation (Eph. 2:8-9). Salvation brings a new relationship between the Redeemed and God. In this new relationship we become the children of God (Jn. 1:14) and are changed (2 Cor. 5:17).

 

It is true that we are saved from eternal punishment and that we receive heaven as a benefit, but the true joy of salvation is God Himself. For heaven or hell without God would be an empty eternity, for the punishment of hell will be minimal in comparison to the fact that everyone will have seen God, and yet the unsaved will depart from His presence for eternity (Jn. 5:28-29; Php. 2:10-11; Mt. 25:31-46) . The world cannot understand this truth apart from the Spirit of God revealing it to them.

 

The problem with the discussion we will have with you Allen, though we are willing, is that you will be speaking from an earthly perspective and we will be speaking from a spiritual persepective (Jn 3:10-14;  Php. 3:17-21). Salvation, the new relationship with God, is both intellectual and experiential. Both require the work of God for Him to be found and received by us.

 

This is a starting point.

 

Lord Bless,
LT

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by allen hawley on January 19, 2011 at 5:05pm

Thanks LT. I appreciate the response. I have attempted discussions like this many times, and always receive scripture as evidence. Not to offend, but scripture is obviously not evidence to an atheist. And the earthly versus spiritual perspective is rather offensive to an atheist, and here's why: According to the bible, no man on earth is greater than any other. We are all sinners in the eyes of God. And, a sin is a sin and we must all be judged for our sins and only our salvation in Christ can allow for God's forgiveness and ultimate passage into heaven. God does not interfere with free will, and he cannot. Hence the term free will.... With that said, we are all earthly beings, of sin and free will, and are not enlightened until after judgement. That is not my rule. So within the confines of your own rules, you have posed a problem with a mere discussion, that places you above human perspective.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on January 19, 2011 at 7:15pm

Allen,

 

I have attempted discussions like this many times, and always receive scripture as evidence. Not to offend, but scripture is obviously not evidence to an atheist.

You have illustrated my point of the difference between an earthly perspective and a spiritual perspective. You reject the very book and person that we whole heartedly love and follow. I am not going to convince you using worldly arguments when any discussion of God must include the book that reveals Him to man. There are other signs, but the Bible is the authorative word that guides and enlightens us to His being, ways and purpose. Thus, you want us to discuss God without using His revealed word to us. You reject that word and we embrace it. Thus, any true discussion is going to be difficult.

 

And the earthly versus spiritual perspective is rather offensive to an atheist, and here's why: Again, this is what the Bible teaches. If you want to discuss things of the spirit you must include that which reveals the spirit and in this case, God. Why would you be offended? As an atheist you do not believe in the spiritual realm. You see the world as being it. Thus, we see things from a different perspective. This is a truth that cannot be denied. If you desire us to discuss things with you and only want us to operate in your ball park you are in the wrong game. We believe in Jesus and trust in the Bible. You ask us to set both aside. Sorry, but that will not happen.

 

According to the bible, no man on earth is greater than any other

Actually, according t the Bible there are those who are born-again and are children of God and those who are not born-again. All men are born into sin, but through Jesus we find forgiveness and salvation. This is foreign to you because you reject the Savior. You reject God and we accept Him, that makes us different even according to the Bible.

 

And, a sin is a sin and we must all be judged for our sins and only our salvation in Christ can allow for God's forgiveness and ultimate passage into heaven.

All sin separates us from God, that is true. All sin must be payed for, that is true. Yet, salvation is much more than entrance into heaven. The born-again believer's sin has been paid for in Jesus Christ. Were are atoned for by the blood of Jesus, the Lamb of God, who died to pay for our sins, the righteous for the unrighteous. The goal of our salvation is not heaven, but God Himself.

 

God does not interfere with free will, and he cannot

On what do you base this theory about the God you don't believe in? The Bible teaches that God is sovereign and rules over all His creation. He has given man liberties and at the same time is free to intervene any time He chooses as God. You don;t want me to refer to Scripture, yet you express an errant view of God?

 

With that said, we are all earthly beings, of sin and free will, and are not enlightened until after judgement. That is not my rule.

Please enlighten me as to where you suppose that rule is written. God brings enlightenment through His Holy Spirit who indwells all who are born-again. There is a major change when one is born-again. We do not simply convert to a religous system, we are transformed by the power of God. The simple truth is that the worldy man cannot understand that and therefore reject it.

 

So within the confines of your own rules, you have posed a problem with a mere discussion, that places you above human perspective.

If by above, you mean spiritual perspective, the answer is "you are correct." You will see things from a earthly perspective and the born-again will see it with a spiritual perspective. That is the nature of it as established by God, not me.

 

LT

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Carla on January 19, 2011 at 5:03pm

Beloved. The questions is this:

 

If not going to hell isn't the motivation, then what would you need to be saved from? Why is their a savior? The fear of punishment versus the reward is a classic human motivation.

 

Blessings to you.. Carla

• ▶ Reply