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Psalm 88
Ok, so as I've been up since about 3:45 am, after going to sleep around 1:00 am :-o and have been sporting a migraine and nausea and dizziness since sometime yesterday afternoon; as I'm going to groan my way to work in a few hours until about noon when I head to a funeral; as I have, for quite sometime, dealt with seamingly one blow after another...
I was going over Psalm 88. I read a commentary that just seems so utterly wrong to me and wanted some other opinions on it.
The site is http://www.bible.ca/ef/expository-psalm-88.htm and the commentary by Warren E. Berkley suggests that unlike other commentators, he believes Psalm 88 to be a lament of one who is sinning
Now I'm not going to be able to say I don't sin. I get angry, I act selfishly at times, I don't always do what I know I should and sometimes don't even KNOW what I should do (who I should throw out - shut up Tammy). LOL Sorry it's been awhile and I needed to harass her to get the discussion going.
But I was drawn to 88 because it sounds a lot like my own prayers often do.
The writer said "It is a continuous, bitter expression of one living deep in despair, sometimes with language that may seem to border on reproach against God." and he was convinced it was written by one suffering from their own sin.
He starts verse 1 with: "O Lord, God of my salvation." Whoever the writer was; whatever the personal context, the first thought in the opening sentence of the poem affirms two things: The writer needs salvation.
MY first thought is "O Lord, God of my salvation." is of one recognizing God is their Lord and saviour...not that they NEED salvation but acknowledge God HAS saved them. Otherwise it seems they would say O Lord God save me. But they didn't.
He goes on to verse 3 stating his belief that the writer is afflicted by their sin and not suffering from other sources of affliction. He continues about the writer speaking of God afflicting him, cutting him off, shutting up His voice, etc.
Now I'm definitely no scholar and maybe this guy is but David cried a lot about his affliction and being in the pit. Job accused God of bringing his calamity on him while still recognizing it was God's right to do so. Yet we know Job was a righteous man and did not suffer any of his affliction because of sinning. Though his friends did their best to convince him that he suffered due to some sin he was engaging in.
It's when things go from bad to worse, satan tries accusing me again of being punished for something. A vague something as well. That because I get out of sorts at times or fail to pray over a meal earlier, or had a bad thought...that this is God's punishment. It's a good thing I've gotten better at spotting this. I may mope a bit....right now I'm moping a lot praying God removes my nausea :-( But any of those thoughts do not exceed the day or typically the hour. Whereas I could start to entertain and hold to such a lie for a week or more just a couple short years ago.
So in recognizing this same condemnation that wants to rear it's ugly head, I read Mr. Berkley's commentary as being one aimed at condemning the mournful rather than in encouraging one another in their troubles.
I can relate a lot to 88 right now yet I know of no sin that would be cause for such affliction or that I do not feel sorrowful for aside from the physical affliction, which Mr. Berkley says the Psalmist is not speaking of physical affliction.
Psalm 88 KJV
O lord God of my salvation, I have cried day and night before thee:
(probably why my migraine)
Let my prayer come before thee: incline thine ear unto my cry; For my soul is full of troubles: and my life draweth nigh unto the grave.
(I've been sick for so long that I sometimes think the grave might be preferable unfortunately.)
I am counted with them that go down into the pit: I am as a man that hath no strength:
(If I didn't keep reminding myself that GOD is my strength, I wouldn't even get out of bed most days.)
Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand. Thou hast laid me in the lowest pit, in darkness, in the deeps. Thy wrath lieth hard upon me, and thou hast afflicted me with all thy waves. Selah.
(I have felt this same way and yet I recall Job did as well but not because of sin. But because he would come to know God like he never had. And affliction is also what changes our sins of anger, selfishness etc. Cause I have changed greatly in these areas from where I started so they serve a purpose.)
Thou hast put away mine acquaintance far from me; thou hast made me an abomination unto them: I am shut up, and I cannot come forth.
(God doesn't want us to be acquainted with just everyone. After we accept Christ, He better put our drinking buddy far away from us. It's not gonna feel good leaving old friends behind but if they're not headed towards Christ, we have to.)
Mine eye mourneth by reason of affliction: Lord, I have called daily upon thee, I have stretched out my hands unto thee. Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction? Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness? But unto thee have I cried, O Lord; and in the morning shall my prayer prevent thee. Lord, why castest thou off my soul? why hidest thou thy face from me?
(God had to show Elijah how to hear Him...in quietness. Yet it's not always easy to obtain quietness with everything clamoring around us and even the cacophony in our own minds that assail us during trouble. So does God hide or do we just not see when He's quietly standing in plain sight?)
I am afflicted and ready to die from my youth up: while I suffer thy terrors I am distracted.
(Amen on being distracted.)
Thy fierce wrath goeth over me; thy terrors have cut me off. They came round about me daily like water; they compassed me about together. Lover and friend hast thou put far from me, and mine acquaintance into darkness.
So do you agree with our comentater Mr. Berkley or does his analysis seem to be condemning of one who was mournful and crying out to God for help and understanding? Most of the Psalms were cries for help or songs of praise. I can't see why Mr. Berkley would think 88 to be any different.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by journeyman on
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I agree with you Seek. The grievous troubles that we can go through I believe are designed to help us grow even more closer to God. Even God's apostles endured tremendous heartache and pain. I know that we are all sinners. All of us. But, I see this as one who is mournful and crying out to God.
Seek, The Holy Spirit loves you. Draw near to him and let him hold you close in God's word. :-D
Though the storms and pains of this life surround us, we are not alone.
Though sometimes we feel so lonely, we are not alone.
Though others cause grief, we are not alone.
Though we raise our hands high in the sky as if in surrender, we are not alone.
Holy Spirit cover my Sister Seek in comfort and calm her heart. YOU are not alone. This is my prayer Abba, anoint Seeks head with your love and give her rest. In the name of Jesus our savior we pray, Amen.
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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If it weren't for verse 15, I might think Job could have written it but it sounds like it's someone who suffered illness since childhood, experiencing loneliness, fear, and a deep sense of isolation not only from others but from God. The human author doesn't confess to doing anything wrong but appears to blame God for what he's going through and what's happening to him. I think all of us at one time or other have asked, "God, how could You let this happen to me?” It depends upon how we see God and the way Job saw and thought about God even needed changing and did change in the last chapters of the book. If only we could see everything the way God sees it and have God's POV always. Maybe one day we will. Maybe this human author finally did.
Berkley doesn't get the last word, as none of us do, but God does.
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Permalink Reply by JB on
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I have noticed that a lot of born-again Christians are still praying to God as Job did, not realizing we are in a different dispensation than that of Job, and our communication with God is different. Job didn’t have Jesus Christ as his mediator as we do. I think that the reason we pray the way some do, is we don’t have a proper perspective of who we are IN CHRIST. When we are asking God for things that Jesus has already appropriated for us, rather than thanking Him for it, we really don’t believe it is a finished work by our Lord Jesus. We forget scriptures like “By whose stripes we were healed.” 1Pet.2:24, “according as His Divine power hath given to us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him…”2Pet.1:2-3. Did Peter and John ask God to heal the lame man at the gate beautiful? Acts. 3:6, No! but it was “IN THE NAME OF JESUS” this is what Peter had; the name of Jesus. He had His “Jesus’s” authority to cast out demons, lay hands on the sick, etc. Because of our wavering about whether or not it is God’s will to heal or deliver, we will ask if it be thy will. Or they are looking for a fleece, i.e. if it be thy will, let this or that happen so I will know, and on and on it goes. I don’t believe there will ever be another situation like Job had.
Must go
JB
PS. Amanda,
I think all of us at one time or other have asked, "God, how could You let this happen to me?”
I know this might be off subject, but this one part: I can’t believe anyone could ask God, why did you let this happen to me?
When something happens to me, I always look at the decisions, or choices I made that led to my successes, or failures. I have always believed that I am a product of my choices. But it seems most people must blame someone else for their misfortunes, or failures, as if they had nothing to do with it. I am a child of God because, when He called, I believed and chose to follow Him.
Joshua 24:15 (KJV)
15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. Amen ?
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"Father, if you are willing, please take this cup of suffering away from me. Yet I want your will to be done, not mine." Luke 22:42, NLT
When Jesus prayed these words, was He laying out a fleece?
There is a teaching today by those who promote a health-and-wealth gospel and they say that we can expect to be rich and healthy according to our faith, and when healing doesn't happen, the sick person is told it is due to their lack of faith and is their own fault and failure.
I don't adhere to that teaching, nor do I think it's biblical. It causes a heavy burden of guilt on those who don't receive physical healing or financial recovery or the restoration of a marriage, etceteras.
How much faith did the son of the widow of Nain have when Jesus not only healed him but raised him? Jesus didn't heal only those who had faith. He worked miracles in the lives of some who had no faith, some who had little faith, some who we're just coming to faith, some who had great faith.
In this psalm, the human author states:
10
Do you show your wonders to the dead?
Do their spirits rise up and praise you?
11 Is your love declared in the grave,
your faithfulness in Destruction[e]?
12 Are your wonders known in the place of darkness,
or your righteous deeds in the land of oblivion? NIV
I would answer, Yes! He has! The son of the widow of Nain and Lazarus both received a miracle and are examples of God showing to the dead His wonders and His love and His faithfulness. What's more is that we will all receive a resurrection, likely different from the way Lazarus and the widow's son were raised, but nonetheless, we will receive it because of God's love, faithfulness, and righteousness.
You say Job lived in another dispensation but those who lived on the other side of the cross were still saved by grace through faith and believed in Jesus, the Messiah. Job believed in the resurrection and Jesus is the resurrection and the life. Job said:
25 I know that my redeemer[c] lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.[d]
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet[e] in[f] my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me! (Job 19:25-27, NIV)
This life is hard but it's not all there is. In psalm 88, the guy isn't seeing beyond this life.
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Permalink Reply by Seek on
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Something just occurred to me when you quoted Jesus lamenting what He was to face. Many people go to that first explanation of us beibg in a different dispensation than that of Job. But when you quote Christ, someone might also say that it only began after Christ.
Sometime ago I was asking about some of Paul's writings and how some people believe that not everything in the Bible is God's Word but sometimes opinion. So this puts another monkey in the wrench.
Acts 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
The author is Paul, speaking as the servant of Christ after Christ ascended. This was Paul, whose writings were counted as Scripture, under the new dispensation, being told he was going to suffer for Jesus. HE wasn't told he'd have perfect health, wealth or prosperity. He was guaranteed suffering.
We don't always know what God's plan is for our lives. Paul knew his. And he definitely suffered.
So I'm often trying to figure out this new covenant and promises of prosperity. I believe Paul was also the one who prayed that they would prosper even as their soul prospered. The other side of that being that he didn't say thank you Lord for my suffering so they won't have to. We all pray for prosperity. I don't know of anyone who wants to lack, but I don't see it as a promise to everyone. I see it as a hope as we would have fainted had we not hoped to see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living.
But unless we have our personal Word from God and know His specific plan for our life, we hold onto hope, but demanding it as a right (or boldly proclaiming we have it), jury's still out deliberating.
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What is the abundant life? Is it an abundance of material things and good health to enjoy them all? It's true that God does bless some people with health, wealth, and prosperity. Some are blessed with health but live in poverty. Some are blessed with wealth but have tremendous medical bills. The combinations of blessings versus afflictions, if factored, could possibly look something like this 2x + 6 = 2(x) + 2(3) = 2(x + 3). Yes, I'm being facetious but honestly people sometimes do make the mistake of thinking that "factoring" means "dividing something off and making it disappear" and wouldn't we all love for our afflictions and suffering and trials and tribulations to disappear!? They're not going to and not because I said so but Jesus said so. And nothing disappears when you factor; things just get rearranged.
What did Jesus mean when he promised an abundant life?
http://www.gotquestions.org/abundant-life.html
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PS since Psalm 88 is included in the bible, it is God- breathed and Holy Spirit inspired and isn't opinion. I'm thinking of the verse that says Holy Spirit prays for us when we don't know what to pray. Some have the gift of praying in tongues but don't know what they've prayed. I wonder if any of their prayers could possibly sound like this guy's? That's interesting, isn't it?
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The Spirit helps them pray with groanings. Psalm 88 sounds a lot like someone groaning.
I don't know what abundance is in God's eyes but He says we won't lack any good thing, that He knows what we need and will provide it, to ask anything and know that we have the petitions of our heart. But He's more interested in the state of our souls and says THEN will these things be added. I know I keep saying if You're willing...and I hear His response "I am willing". But His being willing doesn't make it the right thing in my life or at this point in my life. But if I can't hope that He will exalt me in due time then I might spend the remainder of my life in misery.
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Grace has already provided everything a person needs, but everything a person needs is appropriated by faith. As with salvation, by grace through faith. In Christ we are complete. Our wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption. 1Cor.1:30. It is a completed work in Christ, again, appropriated by faith, even we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand. Ro.5:2. But with a wavering faith, let not that man think he shall receive anything of the Lord. Ja.1:5-8
JB
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I'm of the opinion that James 1 is misunderstood and we have not fully grasped it's true meaning. If I were to believe this verse in the context that it's often used, I would be outright lying to speak of the blessings God has bestowed upon me while I was still negative and often thinking God must hate me or something.
And we also have an example in Gideon. He doubted both himself and doubted he was really speaking with God. So much so that he asked for a sign. Yet Jesus later says that a wicked and adulterous generation asks for signs but they won't see them.
Gideon sought a sign that God was speaking. He believed in God and would obey him, but he wanted to be sure God was the one speaking. Jesus' statement on signs then appears to be speaking of a different type of sign...like a sign to show He's God because they don't believe God.
James 1 says...if any lack "wisdom"...period. The father said "I believe, help my unbelief". Could we apply James 1 and say since he doubted then Jesus couldn't possibly have healed his son. Of course not. We know He did. Maybe we can't expect wisdom from God because we're always second guessing whatever wisdom He's given us. Jesus spoke in parables often but we try and take certain Scriptures and apply them literally without any explanation for their counterparts.
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JM, it's all good. What used to take me a week or more to come back fighting from doesn't go past the day now. Whatever doesn't kill us makes us stronger. And anymore I'm like...if it kills me, I'll just be with God a lot sooner. LOL
*************Amanda, AHA! See I totally missed that one. It certainly does sound that way.
From my youth I have suffered and been close to death;
I can't see how on earth anyone would see this as someone suffering for their sin. I just knew when I read this commentary that it wasn't ringing right to me.
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JB, I'm gonna hafta wag a finger at you and say bad boy. Bad bad bad boy! Now that I have that out of my system, and in a humongous hurry, as usual, consider this...
If you are molested when you're 5, what did you do or choose to do that caused it? How about when you were 2 and being severely beaten by foster parents growing up never having been taught about God, but taught to steal and lie for those just using you as a paycheck? What choice did you make that caused a masked gunman to stroll into your church and shoot you in the back of your head as you prayed? There are many things that many of us might want to ask God why. But that is where faith comes in that, after facing such situations not of our own freewill, but put upon us by others, that we ultimately have to decide that God may not share with us the why, now or ever. But we can still trust to know that His ultimate plan is for our good. Believing in the unseen while seeing the evil all around us I'm convinced makes one even more blessed. As Christ told Thomas, blessed are those who HAVEN'T seen and believe, I feel that even more blessed are those that not only haven't seen, but have seen the complete opposite throughout life, and yet still choose to believe. I'm gonna leave you that one to gnaw on and skedaddle before LT comes in and tells me to play nice. :-P
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You and I both know the Word says that “in this world you will have tribulation, but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world” Why would He say “be of good cheer” for I have overcome the world? My big question, or response was, yea you have overcome it, but what about me? Then I realized I was in Him, I am not my own anymore. But to be of good cheer, as you said, we either get stronger because of them, or we die, which Paul said it was much better for him to go and be with the Lord, but for their sake, he would stay here. Reminds me of what a preacher said the other day, At church they will sing “when we all get to heaven, what a day of rejoicing that will be, when we all see Jesus; we will sing and shout the victory” they go to the doctor the next day for a check-up, and the doc says you’re going to die, and the first thing they will do is start to cry and ask for prayer. Lol
See as it was asked above, what is an abundant life? It is peace with God, by assurance of salvation, it is not by any means accumulation of the things of this world; for the Kingdom of God is not meat nor drink, but righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost. Rom14:17. You can read almost every day about people that has everything money can buy, yet so depressed, they will take their own life. I used to ask why, then I realized they didn’t know Jesus, they didn’t have the peace of God that passes all understanding. The Word says, love not the world, neither the things that are in the world, if any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in them, for the things that are in the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eye, and the pride of life is not of the Father, but of the world….1Jo.2:16
But the things you mentioned earlier, things that happened before we had any control, either too young, or in the wrong place at the wrong time, or as some have said, I knew I shouldn’t have done this or that, being disobedient to that still small voice inside saying, this is the way walk ye in it. That still small voice is the grace of God that leads us out of situations we find ourselves in, as Paul and his thorn. That grace is sufficient for us as well if we obey it. But those things you mentioned, is all due to the fall. It is going to happen to us, but for the most part we don’t have to let those things control our lives. We stay defeated by feeding on them, constantly letting the enemy bring them back to our remembrance, and we will feed on them till they dominate our thinking, bringing on all sorts of thoughts.
God’s ultimate plan is to get us back home.
I have probably gnawed enough, it is getting late and I must get up early for work. God bless.
JB
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