All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
Psalm 88
I'm just gonna apologize for the length now. So you may want to print this and read it when you have insomnia. If it doesn't put you to sleep, nothing will.
Ok, so as I've been up since about 3:45 am, after going to sleep around 1:00 am :-o and have been sporting a migraine and nausea and dizziness since sometime yesterday afternoon; as I'm going to groan my way to work in a few hours until about noon when I head to a funeral; as I have, for quite sometime, dealt with seamingly one blow after another...
I was going over Psalm 88. I read a commentary that just seems so utterly wrong to me and wanted some other opinions on it.
The site is http://www.bible.ca/ef/expository-psalm-88.htm and the commentary by Warren E. Berkley suggests that unlike other commentators, he believes Psalm 88 to be a lament of one who is sinning
Now I'm not going to be able to say I don't sin. I get angry, I act selfishly at times, I don't always do what I know I should and sometimes don't even KNOW what I should do (who I should throw out - shut up Tammy). LOL Sorry it's been awhile and I needed to harass her to get the discussion going.
But I was drawn to 88 because it sounds a lot like my own prayers often do.
The writer said "It is a continuous, bitter expression of one living deep in despair, sometimes with language that may seem to border on reproach against God." and he was convinced it was written by one suffering from their own sin.
He starts verse 1 with: "O Lord, God of my salvation." Whoever the writer was; whatever the personal context, the first thought in the opening sentence of the poem affirms two things: The writer needs salvation.
MY first thought is "O Lord, God of my salvation." is of one recognizing God is their Lord and saviour...not that they NEED salvation but acknowledge God HAS saved them. Otherwise it seems they would say O Lord God save me. But they didn't.
He goes on to verse 3 stating his belief that the writer is afflicted by their sin and not suffering from other sources of affliction. He continues about the writer speaking of God afflicting him, cutting him off, shutting up His voice, etc.
Now I'm definitely no scholar and maybe this guy is but David cried a lot about his affliction and being in the pit. Job accused God of bringing his calamity on him while still recognizing it was God's right to do so. Yet we know Job was a righteous man and did not suffer any of his affliction because of sinning. Though his friends did their best to convince him that he suffered due to some sin he was engaging in.
It's when things go from bad to worse, satan tries accusing me again of being punished for something. A vague something as well. That because I get out of sorts at times or fail to pray over a meal earlier, or had a bad thought...that this is God's punishment. It's a good thing I've gotten better at spotting this. I may mope a bit....right now I'm moping a lot praying God removes my nausea :-( But any of those thoughts do not exceed the day or typically the hour. Whereas I could start to entertain and hold to such a lie for a week or more just a couple short years ago.
So in recognizing this same condemnation that wants to rear it's ugly head, I read Mr. Berkley's commentary as being one aimed at condemning the mournful rather than in encouraging one another in their troubles.
I can relate a lot to 88 right now yet I know of no sin that would be cause for such affliction or that I do not feel sorrowful for aside from the physical affliction, which Mr. Berkley says the Psalmist is not speaking of physical affliction.
Psalm 88 KJV
O lord God of my salvation, I have cried day and night before thee:
(probably why my migraine)
Let my prayer come before thee: incline thine ear unto my cry; For my soul is full of troubles: and my life draweth nigh unto the grave.
(I've been sick for so long that I sometimes think the grave might be preferable unfortunately.)
I am counted with them that go down into the pit: I am as a man that hath no strength:
(If I didn't keep reminding myself that GOD is my strength, I wouldn't even get out of bed most days.)
Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand. Thou hast laid me in the lowest pit, in darkness, in the deeps. Thy wrath lieth hard upon me, and thou hast afflicted me with all thy waves. Selah.
(I have felt this same way and yet I recall Job did as well but not because of sin. But because he would come to know God like he never had. And affliction is also what changes our sins of anger, selfishness etc. Cause I have changed greatly in these areas from where I started so they serve a purpose.)
Thou hast put away mine acquaintance far from me; thou hast made me an abomination unto them: I am shut up, and I cannot come forth.
(God doesn't want us to be acquainted with just everyone. After we accept Christ, He better put our drinking buddy far away from us. It's not gonna feel good leaving old friends behind but if they're not headed towards Christ, we have to.)
Mine eye mourneth by reason of affliction: Lord, I have called daily upon thee, I have stretched out my hands unto thee. Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction? Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness? But unto thee have I cried, O Lord; and in the morning shall my prayer prevent thee. Lord, why castest thou off my soul? why hidest thou thy face from me?
(God had to show Elijah how to hear Him...in quietness. Yet it's not always easy to obtain quietness with everything clamoring around us and even the cacophony in our own minds that assail us during trouble. So does God hide or do we just not see when He's quietly standing in plain sight?)
I am afflicted and ready to die from my youth up: while I suffer thy terrors I am distracted.
(Amen on being distracted.)
Thy fierce wrath goeth over me; thy terrors have cut me off. They came round about me daily like water; they compassed me about together. Lover and friend hast thou put far from me, and mine acquaintance into darkness.
So do you agree with our comentater Mr. Berkley or does his analysis seem to be condemning of one who was mournful and crying out to God for help and understanding? Most of the Psalms were cries for help or songs of praise. I can't see why Mr. Berkley would think 88 to be any different.
Ok, so as I've been up since about 3:45 am, after going to sleep around 1:00 am :-o and have been sporting a migraine and nausea and dizziness since sometime yesterday afternoon; as I'm going to groan my way to work in a few hours until about noon when I head to a funeral; as I have, for quite sometime, dealt with seamingly one blow after another...
I was going over Psalm 88. I read a commentary that just seems so utterly wrong to me and wanted some other opinions on it.
The site is http://www.bible.ca/ef/expository-psalm-88.htm and the commentary by Warren E. Berkley suggests that unlike other commentators, he believes Psalm 88 to be a lament of one who is sinning
Now I'm not going to be able to say I don't sin. I get angry, I act selfishly at times, I don't always do what I know I should and sometimes don't even KNOW what I should do (who I should throw out - shut up Tammy). LOL Sorry it's been awhile and I needed to harass her to get the discussion going.
But I was drawn to 88 because it sounds a lot like my own prayers often do.
The writer said "It is a continuous, bitter expression of one living deep in despair, sometimes with language that may seem to border on reproach against God." and he was convinced it was written by one suffering from their own sin.
He starts verse 1 with: "O Lord, God of my salvation." Whoever the writer was; whatever the personal context, the first thought in the opening sentence of the poem affirms two things: The writer needs salvation.
MY first thought is "O Lord, God of my salvation." is of one recognizing God is their Lord and saviour...not that they NEED salvation but acknowledge God HAS saved them. Otherwise it seems they would say O Lord God save me. But they didn't.
He goes on to verse 3 stating his belief that the writer is afflicted by their sin and not suffering from other sources of affliction. He continues about the writer speaking of God afflicting him, cutting him off, shutting up His voice, etc.
Now I'm definitely no scholar and maybe this guy is but David cried a lot about his affliction and being in the pit. Job accused God of bringing his calamity on him while still recognizing it was God's right to do so. Yet we know Job was a righteous man and did not suffer any of his affliction because of sinning. Though his friends did their best to convince him that he suffered due to some sin he was engaging in.
It's when things go from bad to worse, satan tries accusing me again of being punished for something. A vague something as well. That because I get out of sorts at times or fail to pray over a meal earlier, or had a bad thought...that this is God's punishment. It's a good thing I've gotten better at spotting this. I may mope a bit....right now I'm moping a lot praying God removes my nausea :-( But any of those thoughts do not exceed the day or typically the hour. Whereas I could start to entertain and hold to such a lie for a week or more just a couple short years ago.
So in recognizing this same condemnation that wants to rear it's ugly head, I read Mr. Berkley's commentary as being one aimed at condemning the mournful rather than in encouraging one another in their troubles.
I can relate a lot to 88 right now yet I know of no sin that would be cause for such affliction or that I do not feel sorrowful for aside from the physical affliction, which Mr. Berkley says the Psalmist is not speaking of physical affliction.
Psalm 88 KJV
O lord God of my salvation, I have cried day and night before thee:
(probably why my migraine)
Let my prayer come before thee: incline thine ear unto my cry; For my soul is full of troubles: and my life draweth nigh unto the grave.
(I've been sick for so long that I sometimes think the grave might be preferable unfortunately.)
I am counted with them that go down into the pit: I am as a man that hath no strength:
(If I didn't keep reminding myself that GOD is my strength, I wouldn't even get out of bed most days.)
Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand. Thou hast laid me in the lowest pit, in darkness, in the deeps. Thy wrath lieth hard upon me, and thou hast afflicted me with all thy waves. Selah.
(I have felt this same way and yet I recall Job did as well but not because of sin. But because he would come to know God like he never had. And affliction is also what changes our sins of anger, selfishness etc. Cause I have changed greatly in these areas from where I started so they serve a purpose.)
Thou hast put away mine acquaintance far from me; thou hast made me an abomination unto them: I am shut up, and I cannot come forth.
(God doesn't want us to be acquainted with just everyone. After we accept Christ, He better put our drinking buddy far away from us. It's not gonna feel good leaving old friends behind but if they're not headed towards Christ, we have to.)
Mine eye mourneth by reason of affliction: Lord, I have called daily upon thee, I have stretched out my hands unto thee. Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction? Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness? But unto thee have I cried, O Lord; and in the morning shall my prayer prevent thee. Lord, why castest thou off my soul? why hidest thou thy face from me?
(God had to show Elijah how to hear Him...in quietness. Yet it's not always easy to obtain quietness with everything clamoring around us and even the cacophony in our own minds that assail us during trouble. So does God hide or do we just not see when He's quietly standing in plain sight?)
I am afflicted and ready to die from my youth up: while I suffer thy terrors I am distracted.
(Amen on being distracted.)
Thy fierce wrath goeth over me; thy terrors have cut me off. They came round about me daily like water; they compassed me about together. Lover and friend hast thou put far from me, and mine acquaintance into darkness.
So do you agree with our comentater Mr. Berkley or does his analysis seem to be condemning of one who was mournful and crying out to God for help and understanding? Most of the Psalms were cries for help or songs of praise. I can't see why Mr. Berkley would think 88 to be any different.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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"I told you these things so that you can have peace in me. In this world you will have trouble. But be brave! I have defeated the world!"
— John 16:33 ERV
A simple reading of not only the verse but the passage in context and in light of parallel scriptures shows that Jesus broke the power of sin and death and is the resurrection and the life, showing us that death does not have the final say and even though we are in the world, we are not of it and even though we have sorrows and trials, while we are in the world, we can take heart, knowing this life is temporary and we are heirs with Christ and He is preparing us for an eternal home with Him. Jesus is our peace even though we face many trials and tribulations in this life.
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Permalink Reply by JB on
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Just a quickie, what does this mean to you?
Jesus broke the power of sin and death and is the resurrection and the life
Found in. John 11:24-25 (KJV)
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:JB
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Romans 5:12New International Version (NIV)
Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.
15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ,overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in lifethrough the one man, Jesus Christ!
18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal lifethrough Jesus Christ our Lord.
Jesus has redeemed His children from the sentence of death by paying their penalty-- the wages of sin is death. We all will die physically just as Adam did (except for those who will be changed in the twinkling of an eye) and no amount of faith or appropriating of faith will change the truth that one day our hearts will stop beating, whether due to illness or to the aging process.
We read in
Hebrews 2:14-15New International Version (NIV)
14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.
We are born again and are undergoing sanctification and await our bodily resurrection.
We don't have to fear death because of our sins if we are in Christ. He won't change His mind and decide that we sinned too much or aren't worth it after all. As I mentioned in another comment, we will receive our resurrection and eternal life because of God's love, faithfulness, and righteousness.
John 11:25 Jesus told her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Anyone who believes in me will live, even after dying. NLT
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Thanks for responding Amanda, I want to explain my thoughts, or position on this, but at the same time I don't want to be the author of confusion either, lol I'll get better prepared before I respond further. Okay?
Thanks again, JB
PS May I say also at this time, I think you have really overcome a lot sense I first met you on this forum, I really do appreciate you, and proud to be called a friend. thank you.
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Permalink Reply by Seek on
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Ok, that is what I addressed. In this you said of my examples "things that happened before we had any control". Yet prior to that you said "I have always believed that I am a product of my choices. But it seems most people must blame someone else for their misfortunes, or failures, as if they had nothing to do with it."
Before one has control, they did have nothing to do with it. And in trying to understand why it happened and how to mentally learn to overcome it, before they have been renewed in such an area, they will ask why and perhaps blame because it is all they currently know. And it doesn't change the fact that they didn't have anything to do with it. But renewal will help us learn that we are in a fallen world, and sin is to blame for anything that is not good and God can ultimately use it for our good.
We cannot pick our parents so that we can choose not to be around them even past the age of understanding. We may not be strong enough to push away one who we are left in their care who do wrong to us. We can only learn to trust God as we are renewed. But until then, people do blame because of a lack of understanding and because of what it produced in their younger and undeveloped minds.
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Permalink Reply by Tammy on
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I believe it is one crying out in pain from a childhood illness that he's never gotten released from. The first verse I believe means that God is already His Savior not that he doesn't know Him. And yes, THROW THEM OUT!!! Oh wait, you already did.
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ROFL! What are you gonna do with all the extra paper you saved on such a short answer?
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The paper was for your discussion, not my reply. lololol. I can make it longer. Heck I could write a book with it.
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I haven't had any time to talk about anything so I had a lot to say stored up. LOL
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