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Proving the Word
I may have asked this before so sorry for repetition if I have. How does one prove the Bible is truth without using the Bible to prove it?
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Tammy,
I do not believe that we ever "prove" the Bible is true, but rather the Holy Spirit convinces us that it is the Word of God and wholly trustworthy.
In the world of apologetics I would be viewed as a presupposition apologist because I begin with the belief there is a God. I personally do not think we can ever prove to anyone that God is real. What we can do is be witnesses regarding what He has done in our lives, what the God means to us and what we see as His handy work in creation. Though our witnessing can be compelling it requires the Spirit of God to open minds, eyes and hearts of those around us.
Lord Bless,
LT
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Permalink Reply by Carla on
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Hi Tammy,
I agree that we can't prove it. The Holy Spirit opens the minds and hearts of people. Just like HE did with us.
2 Cor 4:4
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
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Permalink Reply by thewatchman on
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Nice.
But, if I may, add a question to kind of tag Tammy's question. I know it's not up to us to prove the Bible to be true, but we can read a history book and believe those things that the history says are true by reading related stories from a certain period in time, such as the dark ages, the great depression, columbus, etc,
Can't the same be said about, for instance, the prophecies of the Bible that have come to pass?
I guess what my dilemna is....is that I/me personally can say that the holocaust never happened, but we have 10's of 1000's of bodies and personal witnesses to prove it did. Just because I say it isn't so, doesn't make it false.
Such as the same with the Bible, does "hearing" the Word also irrigate the soil of the soul?
Romans 10:14-21--
14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring tidings of good things!
16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people,and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
Even in 2 Cor. 4:4 It states that the god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Aren't they talking about the Gospel? And how the god of the age has blinded them?
My question is: how can they be blinded to the light of the gospel, if they've never heard it?
The Word was with Him and the Word was Him.
And then we go to Romans 1:20 which says: For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
So maybe my question isn't really a question....I've always understood it to be imperative that we drive the Gospel message home to others, because without it, can they be saved?
And the Gospel message is, in fact, the Bible's Truth. So can we proclaim Truth without the Bible? Or can we proclaim the Bible to be True without investigating it and it's prophecies and facts and events? I believe that the Holy Spirit, God, & the Word are inseparable. We cannot separate one from the other, all of it points to Christ.
I think it becomes very dangerous to separate one from the other, in my thinking this envelopes all kinds of different beliefs, instructions, salvation, and serious errors when everyone is saying that they are speaking from the Holy Spirit. If God's plumb line and standards are gone....then anyone who has a thought can say that they are speaking from the Holy Spirit, but yet the Holy Spirit always points to Christ. How do we know it's real, if they haven't heard the Gospel. Where do our standards and plumb line go to then? Where is our measure? What do we compare to?
So no, would be my answer. We cannot prove the Bible to be true if we can't even use the evidence that it speaks of. This is why memorizing Scripture is so important, there will be a day that will come in which we will not have the Bible anymore. We can go around grazing into different fields to make presentations, but the Bible is God's authoritative primary message/letter to each and every one of us.
I do believe in the Holy Spirit, He will always point us to Christ, He has the mind of God, the thoughts of God, and the desire of God.
These are very dark times, no more curtain calls, it's getting real.
Love you all so very much
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Hi Watchman,
I agree that the gospel needs to be preached. It's one of the reasons we're here. Just because we cannot prove the bible, doesn't mean the gospel shouldn't be preached. My answer was very short and to the point (rare for me I know)....
I believe wholeheartedly we are to preach the gospel. The Holy Spirit works through that.
Blessings, Carla
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Okay Carla, Sorry, I guess I'm really misunderstanding everything these days. I understood the initial question differently.
Tammy's question: How does one prove the Bible is truth without using the Bible to prove it?
But isn't using the Bible/Gospel for preaching the same thing as using the Bible to prove it? The Bible is God's Word, it's plumbline and standard right?
Sorry, not trying to be disagreeable, just trying to understand what is being said.
Thanks for the clarifiation. So the Bible does need to be used? To prove it is Truth without using it?
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I would never attempt to convince anyone (understanding ultimately it is the Holy Spirit who will convince) without using the Word of God.
We had an atheist come here a few years ago that wanted to debate things and tried to get me to play their game by accusing me of always using the Bible. I simply told him he came to our playground and here we use God's Word and trust in it. If he wants to discuss philosophy he can go to an atheist site, but here the Word of God will be included in our discussion unashamedly and without apology.
Lord Bless,
LT
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Watchman,
For clarity in case I have been misunderstood. I did not say the Bible wasn't true ... in fact I am sold out that it is true and trustworthy from cover to cover. What I did say is that "we" cannot "prove" the Word of God to be true. We can point to all the evidence, but the Word requires Holy Spirit enlightenment to take that truth and bring one to conviction (both conviction and convincing). Jesus said that if they do not believe the Law and the prophets they will not believe if one rises from the dead. That was not a call to have a high enough ascent to Scripture, but a revelation of man's inability to believe on his own. Yes the gospel must be preached and that gospel will always be accompanied by the Holy Spirit.
Thus, I return to my main point ... yes, we are the presenters of God's Word, but we convince no one regarding the truth of God's Word ... only the Holy Spirit can bring the kind of convincing required for new life and the life that flows from that new birth.
Hope that helps to clarify what I mean. Please feel free to comment or inquire further.
Lord Bless,
LT
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Okay LT, I think I understand where you and Carla are coming from certainly. I guess the whole thing that threw me off was the initial question: How does one prove the Bible is truth without using the Bible to prove it?
There certainly are circumstances in which we must ask ourselves, how does one prove the Bible is THE Truth without using the Bible to prove it.
I don't believe that Tammy is speaking about those who have heard the Gospel and they are still standing in unbelief, but as to those who are wanting us to not use the Bible and prove that it is still the Truth.
Tammy, please correct me if i'm misunderstanding. You both are saying that those who believe the message of salvation are touched by the Holy Spirit and that is why they believe, but yet Tammy's question was referring to not even being used...so the Gospel isn't being presented, is it?, without the Bible?
I will just step out of this, I just don't know if I've misunderstood the whole entire thing. Sorry
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I'm hoping this will offer clarification...
I've spent a fair amount of time discussing God's Word with atheists. I've learned that it is not productive to show them scripture and argue point for point because they simply don't see it, they are blind to it, and they want to use it against itself by point to the OT and cherry picking things which they don't understand the context of.
Now, when I talk to atheists, I simply present the gospel. It will be foolish to them until The Holy Spirit shows them. I don't have to prove it, I just have to share it. It takes the pressure off, and it's a great way to discern why they are talking about it in the first place.
Many times they are simply looking for an argument and I'm not going to play.
Blessings, Carla
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I just read this devotional this morning & I believe that it matches what you & LT have been saying. Thank You Carla.
Better to know Jesus Himself than to know the truth about Him, for the deep things of God are revealed to us by the Holy Spirit. Paul's great desire was, that I may know him. Not just know about Him, or the mysteries of the wonderful world, or even the deeper and higher teachings of God, but to enter into the Holy of Holies where Christ is, where the Shekinah is shining, making the place glorious with the holiness of God. it is to enter into the secret of the Lord Himself.
it was what Jacob strove for at Peniel when he pleaded with God. God has given us he light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 4:6). That is the secret. It is the Lord Himself, and nothing else; it is acquaintance with God; it is knowing Jesus Christ as we know no one else.
It is being able to say not only "I believe Him, but "I know Him. "It is being able to say not only "I know about Him," but "I know Him." That is the secret above all others that God wants us to have; it is His provision for glory and power, and it is given freely to the single-hearted seeker.
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Yes.. That's very good. Human reasoning will never win anyone over to the truth of the gospel.
The gospel/God's Word is true. It doesn't need to be proven. It needs to be accepted and believed. The Holy Spirit is always moving....so we share the gospel and leave it to Him.
Blessings, Carla
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