All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
Proving the Word
I may have asked this before so sorry for repetition if I have. How does one prove the Bible is truth without using the Bible to prove it?
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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It's a great statement and for clarity I've already stated that We know that salvation is up to God and we know the intellect will take us only so far.
However, argue needs defining. To me, what we are doing falls under its definition.
http://biblehub.com/topical/a/argue.htm
I think what bothers most people about arguing is when it takes the form of to blame, to accuse, to charge with.
I've just offered reasons to support my opinion -- reasoning with you. To me, not all forms of arguing are the cut off point. To me, it is a way of letting others hear the word and faith comes by hearing. As I said, I'm not sure just where the cut off point is and it's probably different with each individual being encountered and is subjective. I think you are saying almost the same thing, but seem to have an aversion to the word argue :)
I'll drop it and withdraw from the discussion. It's really not important to me anyway that you should see it the way I see it. -
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Except the dictionary does not always convey the meaning as being used in real application (context) by people today. When is the last time you heard someone say they "argued" and were referring to a civil discussion? We are not arguing, but discussing ... which without going to the dictionary most people today would understand the difference as used in common language today.
Carla gave the context differentiating between a civil discussion/debate and arguing, which is being aggressive.
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I will answer your question even though I said I will drop it. As being someone summoned for jury duty and having served both as a petit juror and on the grand jury, I've seen it. As a juror, one must listen to evidence and testimony as well as the opinions of fellow jurors and not be stubborn and keep an open mind until all has been said, remembering that the reputation and freedom of the accused depends on what you, as a juror, see and hear and say. We should always be courteous, and it's easy to lose your cool in any kind of conversation where you are in disagreement with what is being said to you. As you know, court proceedings often get out of order, too. Emotions get in the way. A juror is told to avoid verbal or facial expressions that reveal their feelings about the case. Verdicts should be based only on the evidence presented and jurors are even asked to set aside emotions and personal convictions and decide a case strictly from the evidence presented and from the instructions of the court.
I'm OK with using the word argue because I understand its meaning in context. You are right. Not everyone does. To me, to discuss is the same thing as to argue points but to do it without negative emotion and character attacking. Discussing could evolve into that kind of aggression, and I suppose that's where it's easier to say one is no longer discussing but is arguing -- a matter of semantics, IMO. -
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Romans 1:16 and 10:13-17 are our assurance and what drives us to share the gospel (among other passages of course :-) What they do with that truth is beyond our control.
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Permalink Reply by Carla on
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Oh Tammy.. I have been there with these conversations.
God uses Men. Period. He's relational. He inspired the men who wrote His Word because that's how He has chosen to deliver His message.
We can't prove it, but spiritually we see it, know it and believe it and are learning to live it as we grow.
This is an expert from an article found here: http://www.compellingtruth.org/Bible-Word-of-God.html
"This is an example of an "internal" evidence that the Bible is the Word of God. Internal evidences are those things stated within the Bible that claim its divine origin. A few other internal evidences are the unity of the Bible, the fulfilled prophecies in the Bible, and the unique, powerful authority of the Bible.
The unity of the Bible means that, even though it was written by more than 40 different authors over three continents, in three different languages, and is comprised of 66 individual documents, it is cohesive down to the last detail. Every supposed contradiction in the Bible can be answered in a satisfactory way. There are no mistakes, and it all works together perfectly. That's a miracle!
The fulfilled prophecies in the Bible also indicate that it is God's Word. Hundreds of prophecies about future kingdoms and nations, and most importantly, the Messiah, were spoken forth and then fulfilled, sometimes hundreds of years later. This is all recorded within the Bible itself. Unlike many modern prophecies, the prophecies in Scripture are very detailed and are fulfilled exactly. There is no way this happened by chance. The only answer is that the Bible is of divine origin."
This is good and reliable information, but it will never win anyone over to the truth unless the Holy Spirit draws them, and they respond. They must ultimately see that they are sinners in need of Saviour. People don't like that though.... we want to think of ourselves as wholistically (spelling???) perfect. We want to think that there is nothing we need saving from or to...I love this CS Lewis quote:
"I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else."
I've heard these conversations, and they are circular. If you feel God prompting you to stay there and have the discussion for whatever reason, then stay...
Be careful when you are talking to them to stay true to God's Word, and not alter it to satisfy their desires or compliment their ego. God's word convicts and it is intended to.
2 Tim 4:2
Preach the word of God. Be prepared, whether the time is favorable or not. Patiently correct, rebuke, and encourage your people with good teaching.
Also, keep these things in mind:
Matthew 7:6“Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.
and
Matthew 10:14
If any household or town refuses to welcome you or listen to your message, shake its dust from your feet as you leave.If someone persists to try to have a discussion with you, and it has become circular, ask them why they want to talk about it, and then listen to their response. They may be genuinely seeking. If they are explain to them that this is a spiritual not a physical conversation. Go thru the story of what happened in Genesis when everything was perfect, to the rebellion, the fall and the separation from our Creator. Tell them how it was people who desired earthly kings and rulers, but God advised against it. Tell them how God meets people where they are, and in the OT all of the atrocities occurred due to human pride and us as fallen people wanting our own way. Idolatry, death, murder, war, corrupt sexual issues etc........is all due to fallen people wanting their own way, and God granted it to us. If you are going to have these discussions, let them passionately feel the distance between humanity and God. Don't be afraid of the OT (not that you said you are) and all of it's horrible stories, because they are the stories of what happens to the people when they strive to live without God. THEN... Tell them about Jesus. Tell them, that if they want to truly know who God is, they need to look long and hard at Jesus. Let God's Word speak for Itself, because there is nothing else, and no one else who can speak for God anyway. How do we know it was God speaking thru people? Because there are no contradictions. When you say this they will present to you a list of what they think (or heard) are contradictions. But it's because they are reading it out of context. There are entire websites dedicated to bible contradictions... This is likely where they are getting the information they have. It's not that they have studied it themselves (in most cases), they are simply believing what they have been told. Ask them how long they have studied, and present the truth to them, if you desire to engage in the conversation. I have, and they have been left speechless... seeds planted? Perhaps. Hopefully. Tell them about God's plan for reconciliation and redemption.
If they are trying to argue with you, you will never get anywhere near having the type of discussion outlined above. if they are genuinely searching, God will show you a softened heart. They will ask questions and be hungry for it.... Share the gospel. Let them know there is a way out from feeling anxious. Let them know they can experience peace that is beyond human understanding in the most difficult of circumstances. They can know now, what it means to be reconciled to their Creator. Life will still be hard, Jesus tells us we will have many trials. but the peace they get from knowing God is far beyond their comprehension, because even though we have many trials, Jesus has overcome the world, and once we are saved, we are In Him. Amen.
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Permalink Reply by Tammy on
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And also for those who have never heard it. How can I go to a 'book' which I know is inerrent but tell them it is & they believe it because I said it was so.
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You simply give them the Word and let God does His work, which includes giving them the liberty to reject Him and His Word.
They will/can only truly believe it if the Holy Spirit enlightens them.
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Tammy,
It's not you who said the book is inerrant. God said it, and you believe it. God's the authority---that's what their problem is, they don't want God to be the authority.
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I'm sorry I haven't replied. It's not that I'm not reading tho. I just don't really know what to answer except thank you all for your replies.
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Thanks for your input Bev. All are appreciated for sure. I loved where you said: I found that more oft than not I was trying to prove I was right (because I was) - Aren't women always right?
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