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OFFENSE OR DEFENSE ???
Can a Christian ever be on the offense against satan? of Must we always be on the defense? This probably sounds like a dumb question. However, I would like to know and have Scriptural references, please.
In Jesus Love,
Mischelle
In Jesus Love,
Mischelle
Views: 304
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Rita,
I do not believe that humans have free will. I believe only God has free will. I know this is more an issue of terminology, but is one I like to bring up, so the right terminology can be introduce. We have the ability to choose according to our strongest inclinations, but that is drastically different than free will.
OK seriously the following I am asking?
>>if we adopt the offensive position, we are attempting to take away the free will that God Himself has given us.
Ok you got me intrigue with the meaning of that statement. I do not follow you, how would we be taking away our ability to choose by taking the offensive?
Blessings.
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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Okay, talk about provoking thoughts - I am sitting here trying to figure out this riddle. (the one about free will - David's comment got between Rita's and mine.)
On another note:
1 Sa 17:34-37
34 But David said to Saul, "Your servant has been keeping his father's sheep. When a lion or a bear came and carried off a sheep from the flock, 35 I went after it, struck it and rescued the sheep from its mouth. When it turned on me, I seized it by its hair, struck it and killed it. 36 Your servant has killed both the lion and the bear; this uncircumcised Philistine will be like one of them, because he has defied the armies of the living God. 37 The Lord who delivered me from the paw of the lion and the paw of the bear will deliver me from the hand of this Philistine."
Saul said to David, "Go, and the Lord be with you." NIV
May we all be granted the same Spirit as was upon the life of David especially when the enemy marches into the sheepfold and carries off one of the sheep. It appears to me that God is expecting us to do something about this.
Roy
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Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on
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Yes, He expected David to defend the sheep. He expects us to defend our beliefs. He doesn't expect us to incite a riot! the bear(lion) after the sheep is on the offense.
Blessings, brother Roy. -
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Rita does a great job provoking (bad word) the mind. However, they are very provoking thoughts.
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Miscelle,
I was blessed by this and I will share with you sister:
The Battle is THE LORD'S
You must understand that YOU CANNOT overcome the things that trouble you alone, by yourself, or without THE LORD.
In fact, the struggle, trouble, and battle that you have is The Lord's Battle.
Why is your trouble and struggle and battle The Lord's?
The reason is: The Lord is all Truth and all Wisdom and all Spiritual Light (Understanding).
He alone, can overcome and fight: darkness, confusion, and unrighteousness.
He alone, can win the battle; therefore the battle is The Lord's.
The battle is not yours, it is The Lord's. It is a spiritual battle, between Good and evil.
The Truth of Goodness overcomes the falsity of evil.
Exodus 14:14 - The Lord shall fight for you, and ye shall hold your peace.
Deuteronomy 20:4 - For The Lord your God is He that goeth with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to save you.
1 Samuel 17:47 - And all this assembly shall know that The Lord saveth not with sword and spear: for the battle is The Lord's.
2 Chronicles 20:15 - And he said, Hearken ye, all Judah, and ye inhabitants of Jerusalem, and thou king Jehoshaphat, Thus saith The Lord unto you, Be not afraid nor dismayed by reason of this great multitude; for the battle is not yours, but God's.
2 Chronicles 20:17 - Ye shall not need to fight in this battle: set yourselves, stand ye still, and see the salvation of The Lord with you,..
2 Chronicles 32:8 - With him is an arm of flesh; but with us is The Lord our God to help us, and to fight our battles. And the people rested themselves upon the words of Hezekiah King of Judah.
Psalms 23:4 - Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou art with me.
Psalms 24:8 - Who is this King of Glory? The Lord strong and mighty, The Lord mighty in battle.
Psalms 34:22 - The Lord redeemeth the soul of His servants: and none of them that trust in Him shall be desolate.
Psalms 35:1 - Plead my cause, O Lord, with them that strive with me: fight against them that fight against me.
Isaiah 27:1 - In that day The Lord with His sore and great and strong Sword shall punish leviathan that crooked serpent; and He shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.
John 18:36 - Jesus answered, My Kingdom is not of this world: if My Kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is My Kingdom not from hence.
Why do we not return evil for evil, hurt for hurt?
Because the battle is The Lord's.
Why are we not afraid?
Because the battle is The Lord's.
Why do we not panic?
Because the battle is The Lord's.
Why are we non-violent?
Because the battle is The Lord's.
Why do we turn the other cheek?
Because the battle is The Lord's.
Why do we have patience, when we are persecuted?
Because the battle is The Lord's.
Why do we stand firm?
Because the battle is The Lord's.
Say this:
The Battle is The Lord's
The Battle is The Lord's
The Battle is The Lord's
Remember this when things seem to be going too hard for you!
Source: http://www.jesusone.com/truths/battle.htm
NOT BY MIGHT OR BY POWER BUT BY MY SPIRIT SAYS THE LORD!
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you got me intrigue with the meaning of that statement. I do not follow you, how would we be taking away our ability to choose by taking the offensive?
David, if you adopt an offensive position, you are trying to turn another's free will to choose who they will, to the way you see things. You are trying to put them under your thumb, so to speak. You are trying to *force* a person to believe as you do.
Probably your idea of free will and my idea of free will are not the same. I think we are free to choose who we will serve. I choose God. If you believe in a different predestination than I do, you may not think this way. That's OK but....which of us has the most freedom...you, believing we don't have free will, or me believing we do have freewill?
Predestination for me is ....
God knew from the foundation of the world...who would follow Him because of the fact that He is all knowing and all seeing. God set his rules about what type of person he wanted to inhabit Heaven. We both happen to fit because we chose Christ. For the person who never chooses Christ, and because he didn't, he will stay in the world, wasn't selected by God to end up not serving God.
The way God predestined us to be with Him was what He already knew what we would choose. He actually sees the end of our lives and where we will be.
I believe the Holy Spirit calls everyone. Our decision is what makes the difference. That is free will.
Blessings to you as well, my brother.
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Rita,
You are very free to speak of your freedom. However, I am not free to speak of God's freedom. Let me explain: free will is the accepted doctrine of this website. There are some who do not believe that man has the free will to choose. They believe that God chooses based on His good pleasure and will. However, I feel that I must be very careful about the way I would say that since that is not the popular belief on this site. Example, I believe this:
Eph 1:11-12
11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, NIV
Eph 2:7-8
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this not from yourselves, NIV
You see, I don't believe that we choose to believe - the faith we have is a gift from God. Then, you say, well you have the choice to accept that faith or reject that. To me, that is nonsense. No man can resist God's will.
When people throw around constantly that their premise of faith is based on their free will, I have to sit here and grit my teeth as I know I will provoke some by saying differently. I have learned to be quiet, for the most part, on the subject since I believe we should walk in unity. But, I think just as those of us who believe that it is according to God's will and not ours, must be disciplined in our response, those who believe it is according to the free will of man must remember that there are people on here that don't agree with that. I personally believe that if it were your will, you would never come to believe in Him. However, I must remain respectful of those I offend when I say that. I guess I just don't think you are as good of a person as you think you are. I believe at the time of your salvation, you were in a state of rebellion. I believe you needed some intervention from the Almighty God to get you turned around and headed in the right direction.
You see, I believe this: your faith was not your decision, but His. That is a minor point. The most important point is that we believe however we came by this faith that we have. Amen?
Roy
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Roy,
What do you do with these verses?
ROMANS 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
1 TIM 2:4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
EZEK 18:23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?
EZEK 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn, and live.”
What I don't understand is this... if God wants all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth,
where does the gift of faith come from?
Rita
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Rita,
I am saying that not everyone agrees with you on the subject of the free will of man. Those are wonderful verses that you have quoted. However, not all would agree that they testify to the free will of man.
Roy
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Hi, Roy.
I've done a lot of reading in the last hour or so and trying to figure out about God giving us faith. Sorry to be such a dummy, but.....I just don't get it!
The first verse, Romans 10:17 is telling me that faith comes by hearing through the word of Christ. That makes sense. I hear the word of Christ and I believe it.
The next 3 verses all say that God wants all men to be saved. That also makes sense, soooo.....
Here's my question....If faith is given to us by God, and He wants all of us saved, does something trigger Him to give faith to some but not to others?
I am missing something somewhere undoubtedly?
Maybe you can explain it?
Rita
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Sis Rita,
I will answer the questions you have given Roy on your page or thru messages for two reasons:
1. To respect the desire of sister Mischelle to keep this discussion on topic.
2. The topic of Reformed Theology and Arminianism has been a hot one lately here on AAG world. There are very good answers to your questions using numerous verses. But I believe is wise to leave the topic a lone for now.
Blessings beloved.
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Hey beloved Rita,
I think we are talking apples and oranges. So I will try to explain myself better :)
>>David, if you adopt an offensive position, you are trying to turn another's free will to choose who they will, to the way you see things.
First I think, I am not sure, but I think the word Offense has a different meaning to you and me. Offensive can mean very negative things :STUMBLING BLOCK *woe unto the world because of offenses— Mt 18:7, but that is not the meaning I am attaching unto the word. From the start of this thread I understood Mischelle to mean offense as in football or basketball. We have defense, which is what wins games and offense which applies the killing blow in such games.
MEANING OF OFFENSE
5 a : the act of attacking : ATTACK, ASSAULT *weapons of offense* b : the means or method of attacking or of attempting to score c : the offensive team or members of a team playing offensive positions d : scoring ability
I see God's people in the offensive in multiple places in scripture. I like that one song:
Now you may see defense when I see offense and that is perfectly fine. No problema.
>>you are trying to turn another's free will to choose who they will, to the way you see things.
Yes, most definitely, but never by force, but with love and reasoning. My calling primarily is to teach which is something I am passionate about. I do not see that as a bad thing. I do try to persuade people to the truth and do remain open to learn, so if in the process I am shown that my position or belief is mistaken I HAVE NO PROBLEM MODIFYING MY BELIEFS, none what so ever. I LOVE THE MEN that have pointed me in a better interpretation of scripture. After considering deeply different positions and continuing to study, I have learned some things, and I like to share them. I have no problem stating that. It is my calling, what I was born to do. But I am completely against shoving doctrines down people’s throat or using force to do so. All the Apostles and Jesus tried to persuade their listeners.
Acts 26
28 Then Agrippa said to Paul, "Do you think that in such a short time you can persuade me to be a Christian?" 29 Paul replied, "Short time or long—I pray God that not only you but all who are listening to me today may become what I am, except for these chains."
Now in the offensive mode I suppose you could say one is trying to turn someone's free will, but I don't see a problem with that especially if the truth will bless them and free them from hurtful actions and erroneous understanding.
Here I am trying to persuade you that I see offense everywhere in scripture, now we can get into semantics about how it is really not offense but defense. You can turn around and tell me, thank you but no thank you and I have not one cinch of problem with that. My heart does break for those who due to pride of stubbornness or simply a deep believe that what they believe to be right is right, are not willing to examine other interpretations. But I am not called to convince anyone, though I am willing to go to great length to teach I know for a fact that only Christ can change a person. God does use His people to edify His Kingdome.
>>You are trying to put them under your thumb, so to speak
Everywhere I have stated that we fight not flesh and blood, so my offensive is not directed at people but principalities etc...
>>You are trying to *force* a person to believe as you do.
Now my offense has nothing to do with discussing theology with believers. I have never thought about offense like that, that is why I did not understand your statement. I endeavor in teaching the truth as I see it in scripture and so wish most Christians would learn to discuss what have been known as hot topics throughout church history, in love and by reasoning. I am blessed by those who are able to do so and by the others who resort to attacks as well, for they help us exercise love and patience. Easy to love the lovable, but the knuckle heads are not that easy to love.
But these are the fights I like. I love killing my flesh, fighting it and choosing to continue to hope and love, for love never fails. So I think we are talking of different things.
>>Probably your idea of free will and my idea of free will are not the same. I think we are free to choose who we will serve. I choose God. If you believe in a different predestination than I do
Here is the thing beloved. Yes you and I believe in a different predestination. You believe that God knows who will choose him and chooses them according to His foreknowledge, which is what you have stated before. Here I come and tell you, hey sis, not one verse in scripture to back up that believe, now I would love for people not to get offended, but instead say, wait knuckle head, let me review what you just said and get back at you. Now if you comeback with scripture to show me that my statement was wrong, girl I would fly to your state and give you a bear hug and love you more. I would not try to defend my stance no matter what in the face of the truth just to protect my pride or what have you. I can careless about holding on to the teachings of men or pride. Teach me. Blessed me with the truth, even if that means radically changing my views. THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT TOPIC IN MY LIFE, GOD.
So I tell you look we don't see your concept in scripture however we see in multiple places that God predestines people according to His good pleasure, yet He is calling us to Repentance and believing, there is a real tension there between our moral responsibility and God's sovereignty. I leave it as is. I do not try to explain it away. I believe fully in God's sovereignty and man's responsibility to repent and believe.
Another thing too sis is that I firmly believe that we can believe differently about such matters and still pull together as one body. We tend to fellowship habitually with those that believe as we do and that is perfectly ok with me, but you remain in my heart my beloved sister who I would be willing to always love and edify.
Now here comes the knuckle head again and says: Look humans do not have free will hahahaha Wow!!!! What in the world is this burro/donkey talking about. hahaha
Well here is one of the definitions of free will: Ability to choose freely without exterior or interior motives or inclinations. In my understanding, no human can do that. We have reasons, motives, inclinations that guide us to choose as we do. So I say we have liberty and freedom to choose as our heart's desire. So there is a difference between Christian liberty and free will, which in my opinion only God truly has.
Now I can make a case for it using scripture and philosophical arguments in logic and have an amazing time doing it, it’s what I love, it’s my calling. But if you or anyone else says, no thanks Dave I am happy and good as I am, I am not going to persecute that person, they are free to choose according to their heart's desires. No problema, I still love you.
Love you sister and fellow accountant and worker in the faith. :)
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