All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
Not sinning against God and Good works; does that mean the same thing?
I am not caught up on reading all the newest post in the forums but have read some of the post. I read where some believers believe or it seems they believe that to sin against God may cause a person to lose salvation. The other views are no that isn't true and they say something like "you are not saved by "works". So my question is this is Not sinning called good works? All this is important to me. I guess maybe aster reading some of the resent forum discussions and some of the past discussions, I am confused as to what to believe. I used to think I was saved. At the time I didn't have any doubts that I was. But, that was because I believed "don't anymore" that to be saved was to say a sinners prayer and that was it.... God saved you. But I also believed that change would happened and actually at the time it did. It wasn't over night change but I did everything I could to be as Jesus asked me to be. When I was praying believeing and God was changing me.. I never once considered that to be good works. I only felt it was being obedient and loving the Lord. When I read the different views of these discussions... I think ...yes this makes sense then I read the opposing view and then I also think this makes sence too. That is how confused I am. But, anyway I hope someone can answer my question. Is obeying God and not sinning against Him the same thing as good works. I already know all people are sinners but cant they change when the spirit is living in them? Thank you if any one answers. If you cant understand what I am trying to ask... please let me know and I will try to write it better. I will try :-)
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Tammy on
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God tells us to be holy as He is holy. This cannot happen in & of ourselves outside of the Spirit. The word also tells us the Spirit is willing & the flesh is weak. So, as a Christian, we're still are in the flesh & the Spirit is in us. We're going to fall but we put on our big-girl panties & get at it again. Short & sweet as always from me but I hope this helps just a tad.
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Permalink Reply by ribbon on
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Thank yall for reply's.
Tammy, I do believe that it is the spirit of God is what makes Christians holu=y and that they cant be that way without Jesus. I also believe that without the spirit someone may not have conviction about sin. I also believe Christians fall or stumble and then get back up because they love God and the spirit convicts them. I also believe that some people don't call it stumbling but only call it being human and that it is okay.. Thank you for replying.
Amanda, It was only a short while that I denied self. During the time I was trying to follow Jesus... I with all my heart as much as I was able... truly gave my all to Him. Myself was always on the back burner. Bad happening all around me and mine and my love for Jesus didn't fade.... I didn't put me before Him. But now Im all for me and ashamed but that's another story. I don't understand what you are saying but I try to answer with what I think you are saying. If a person gives up himself because of the spirit living in them causing conviction... well then I believe turning from sin would be a natural thing...... and because of being truly brn again. I wish I was gifted with words like yall are. My beginning question was because of I hear or read in so many places and not just here on AAG but other sites.... that when someone talks about the Word of God boldly and talks about loving Him and suggest that others should love Him and believ His word without any "but" behind it.... they are sometimes told that they are living by works. Im not saying you or anybody else aren't believing Gods word.. Im just saying that when someone lives by the word the best they can.... it is called "works". Why is obeying Gods word "works"? To me works is someone doing things and giving God the glory.... . I just reread what I wrote and I am having a hard time too with what I a trying to ask. Forgive me for that.
Watchman, I don't mind long reply's at all.
It's not the old lives that we are living that we turn to Jesus for, it's the new one, the one filled with Christ, started with Christ, living with Christ, and ending with Christ. <---------- Hopefully some day I will be doing this. Hopefully my family also :-) I wsh I could love the Lord like I once thought I did. I agree with you and others here who have suggested t I need to open the bible and read. Thank yall again. :-)
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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Janie,
I wish I could say things in a way that others can more easily understand me, and I'm sorry for not being more clear and concise. I'll ask God to help me with this.
You said: "Im just saying that when someone lives by the word the best they can.... it is called "works". Why is obeying Gods word "works"? To me works is someone doing things and giving God the glory."
The best way I can explain it is that there is obedience and disobedience. Both involve actions and acts, or behaviors. Obedience is considered as acts that are good and right. Disobedience is considered as acts that are bad and wrong. Therefore, we call these things good works and bad works. Keeping the commandments of Christ, getting baptized, taking holy communion, are things that all fall under good works when we are born again. Taking off the old self and putting on the new self, dying to sin, denying self, are all ways of describing obedience to God and seeking to do His will and not our will.
We become new creations at new birth and we are to live a life that pleases God, a life of obedience, a life of good works. The works aren't saving us. We aren't saved by good works, but are saved for good works.
I hope this is a sufficient answer, and I ask to be corrected if I'm in error, for I'm still learning, too.
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Sweet, sweet Amanda,
My not being able to understand isn't because of you. Me not understanding most of what I read has everything to do with my lack of education, that is all. Yes, your answer helps me to see where this works thing comes from..... "action". I believe these good works actions shoud come naturally once someone is born again.
We become new creations at new birth and we are to live a life that pleases God, a life of obedience, a life of good works. The works aren't saving us. We aren't saved by good works, but are saved for good works.
I didn't realize yalls discussion was about not being saved by works. I don't believe that either nor did I think that the other members were saying that. I do believe though if a person isn't under conviction of their own sin.. and they continue in sin that they probably wernt really born again in the first place. But and a big but... I have seen when folks say when someone is trying their best to follow His word .. Ive seen they are told that they are trying to be saved by works.. Some and I mean a lot of people take that to mean sin is ok. Some people say that the missionary guy Paul Washer teaches the saved by works. Ive listened to many of his sermons and I have heard him say that isn't true at all. He teaches like ypu do.... saved by grace through faith... saved by the blood. His teachings are also about folks believeing they can do as they please ..like living as worldly as they did before they said a sinners prayer. No changes at all. Im not saved because I never see changes in me. Anyway I am rattling and maybe getting off subject. Thank you again for taking time to answer my question, Your answer is helpful.
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Janie,
Some people also call it "deeds" instead of works -- good deeds, bad deeds. Telling a lie is disobedience and therefore a bad deed. Spending time reading the bible and praying is obedience and therefore a good deed.
The difference between being saved by works and being saved for works is whether or not we are relying on Jesus for salvation or on self. Some try to make it a mixture of both Jesus and self, and that is erring, too.
For many years I was involved in a church that explained I must maintain my salvation by obedience. I was also taught that to receive the "free gift of salvation" involves "works of obedience" but the works were never defined as "works of merit" -- as if there is a difference. Is it just a subtle play on words? Does it really matter? Well, part of the teaching was also that Christ only came to show God's love for man through the atonement and give man new laws to keep that will bring life, and Christ was the example and simply showed us how to save ourselves.
The question is, are we saving ourselves or is Jesus saving us or is it both?
It's a good question.
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Also yall, I am not just talking about works of folks doing for God but Im talking about when they say Gods word says this and they believe it to be true and true no matter what your own circumstance is.... whether your circumstances are going good or bad. Those people who say these things are also told that they are works believers. This is what I don't understand. I have read where someone was 'not actually outright called self righteous but to me, it seemed they were insinuating that they were self righteous for believing Gods word without any if ands or buts. I want to learn and not accuse but this is how I have been understanding things I read. I remember when I first joined this site... I didn't really like Christians.... and when I read the discussions I would mostly follow the ones where members would go at it against each other. Im sorry to say but that was so entertaining to me. Its not that way now. I just try to soak in what I can and understand what I can. Forgive me if I seem accusing.
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Janie,
In my case, I'm self righteous if, when someone asks me how do I know I'm saved and I respond by saying because I know I'm pleasing God through my obedience. You see, it's all about me, then, and not about the finished work of Christ in his death, burial, and resurrection. I struggle, too, wondering if my obedience is required to save me. Perhaps it makes no difference, and I asked if it does matter, in another forum. As long as we believe and obey, does it matter why we obey? If motive matters, then, yes, it does matter why we obey. Very much.
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I just don't understand why some Christians seem to get upset when some Christians love God so much that they want to follow His every command. When I read discussions I think everybody is making sense with what they say. But then I think , how can that be if they are disagreeing with each other. Like when I have read some say that they love to put on their Sunday best when attending church because they want to do all to respect the Lord. Others intervene by saying things like God says to come as you are... and why pretend to be what you aren't and say them dressing that way doesn't make them more saved than the others.. So you see..... I understand both views but agree with the one where I would want to wear my best..... but I wouldn't think they was more saved than the ones who don't dress up. <---- that's just an example of things I have read online. I don't understand that is all.
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Eternal life with God will be only holiness. It will be the lifestyle, the way of Holiness. God's perfect law will be the only way of life, eternally with God. I want that, even now. I want to keep every commandment and I feel miserable when I fail, and I fail often, in many ways. I've never meant to make it sound like failure is OK. It's inexcusable. Jesus didn't die to make it OK to sin.
The question is, how are we saved? Through belief and obedience, faith and works? By grace and neither faith, nor works? By all three -- grace, faith and works? By The work of Jesus at Calvary plus our work, lifelong?
I want to get that question settled, too. How can I receive eternal life?
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I believe no one can be saved without being born again.... grace through faith. By the blood of Jesus. I believe that there should be or will be some sort of evidence coming from a born again believer. I believe that if the Holy Ghost is living in a person.... it will be shown through their actions. I believe that if there isn't any evidence what so ever in a person who has been orn again than that person maybe isn't. I am sorry if this makes anybody angry. But hey but please bear with me though because ..... I am illiterate when it comes to biblical things. I still don't understand why some one who takes each and every word of Gods as factul and for today.... upsets some. Back to my original question .... why is obeying God called works. I am sorry That I said more over than just my first question. Forgive me once again. Don't yall know how hard it is for someone like me with the education of less than grade school to come in and ask questions among the college and biblical educated honior students as yall look to be? Its hard..... but I need to try to learn. Please forgive me if I come out to look like a di=umb hick being a snot rag. That is not my intentions.
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We must be born again. Very true.
I hope I never come across as someone who could care less whether or not I obey God. I feel miserable when I sin, and, yet, it is misery, too, to live in fear of being cast away for sinning and of losing the Holy Spirit and wondering if every sin has been confessed and cleansed each night before I go to sleep in case I never awaken again.
I'm deeply sorry if any of my replies on AAG have brought confusion and pain to anyone. I will, at this point, give it over to God, and I hope and pray you find peace, Janie, with all your questions. In His love, Amanda -
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