All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
Magic or Witchcraft?
There is a blog here about magic and that it is sorcery and witchcraft. I began to post my feelings on this, but this is more a discussion rather than to derail another's blog post. So what are your opinions on this?
I disagree in part that it is the same as sorcery/witchcraft. I'd say it's dependent upon the type of magic and the purpose. To distort things or use reference to spirits in a show is not the same as using a slight of hand trick that the audience knows is something you know how to do that they don't and is simply a "trick". It's not used to deceive but to entertain. I do one myself that my brother, who does entertain kids church using such small slight of hand in a magic clown act, taught me. And he says he will never show me another because I give away the secret of it. ;-) But he never claims that he uses his mind or spirits, he doesn't use deception or try to confuse the audience. He calls it a magic "trick", slight of hand and they know it's something he does that he keeps hidden from their view because they want to know how he does it and he says if he tells them it will spoil the trick. General magic tricks do not use supernatural power. Magicians of this sort do not pray to spirits to do these. They do not feel they are magic nor treat them as anything supernatural.
So to upset my brother further, except he doesn't read here...
You can buy a fake rubber thumb at any magic store. You hold it in your hand and make a fist around it so it is not seen, with the open end facing up towards your thumb. You pour salt in your hand (thumb that is hidden in your hand. You then pack it down with your fingers and other thumb (make a show of it), but when you pack it down with your thumb, you leave your thumb in it. Pull out your thumb, with the fake thumb on it, wave that hand over the now empty closed fist. Say a few words like my brother does: "skittledy doo skittles and cream, make this salt disappear like it was a dream". Open your hands and wave them around to show there is no salt in your hand. Clap your hands, rub them together (make a show of it), while slipping your thumb back into your fist. Then withdraw it without the fake thumb on it. Turn the fist over and pour out the salt that is still in the rubber thumb that is now back in your fist.
Now don't everyone rush out to get a rubber thumb. LOL
So back to the discussion....Thoughts, opinions?
I don't see it much different than the debate on Christmas trees. If you worship the tree and decorations, then you shouldn't have them because they're there for the wrong reasons. If however you have it for decoration and in observance of the holiday, as something your kids can enjoy, but that you can do without, then there should be no issue with it. Romans 14 comes to mind for me:
1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. 2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. 4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. 7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. 10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Verse 6 especially says to me that when a church uses a magic show that is done for God, to benefit the kingdom and get people in to hear the Word of God, without pretense that it is sorcery or witchcraft or something magical or supernatural, but knowing it is simply man made slight of hand "tricks", that they "regardeth it unto the Lord". Those that feel it's sorcery must be fully persuaded in his own mind and those who don't feel so, fully persuaded in theirs. Thoughts?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by thewatchman on
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Verse 6 especially says to me that when a church uses a magic show that is done for God, to benefit the kingdom and get people in to hear the Word of God, without pretense that it is sorcery or witchcraft or something magical or supernatural, but knowing it is simply man made slight of hand "tricks", that they "regardeth it unto the Lord".
I think that using verse 6 to justify magic tricks in church is quite a bit of a stretch. I know that people think using just about anything to get people into the church is justified, because they believe that the ends justify the means. God declares differently in His Word.
God doesn't need a magic show to get people in to the church nor does He need gimmicks, comic relief, celebrities, bands, etc.
And directly to the topic at hand, sleight of hand, "tricks" it's all deception. Maybe I should loosen up, but I just don't believe in my heart that this is right. Little children who see the magician make something magically disappear or appear, doesn't glorify God or draw them to God's Word...they are enamored with the magician and how did he do it? Their focus remains on the magician and his trick.
No glorifying God in that.
I just think that this is just yet another thing that is tragically what's wrong in Christianity today.
You cannot mix the sacred with the secular. I know that the topic of the magic tricks seem harmless enough and that it's not talking about the occult, etc., but just like drinking a glass of water with just a little arsenic in it...seems harmless, but after time....
I would close the door on this one.
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Permalink Reply by Seek on
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Here's an example of how it can be used to teach and I feel glorify God.
In one of our Bible Schools, the youth pastor did a sort of reenactment of Jesus turning water into wine (err Kool aid). In another teaching, he poured a dye into a glass of water to show the blackness of sin. He then stirred it with a cross, speaking of Christ's sacrifice and His blood, as the water turned red. Then he continued speaking of Christ's blood purifying and cleansing us of sin as he continued stirring until the water was crystal clear.
This is why I wonder on Romans 14. It seems some then felt it was wrong to eat what was meant as a sacrifice to idols or eat certain foods or celebrate certain days because they perhaps felt it could be harmful and sway the person. But this passage says let them be persuaded in his own mind. If he 8 of a right heart with God and is not open to persuasion by these things then it appears to me that Paul is saying it's not a problem for them. And it's not a problem if one feels it can be a stumbling block either since it's ultimately the heart that's at issue.
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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As far as Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 8 go in addresssing "freedoms in Christ" if we engage in an activity that isn't prohibited by Scripture, such as drinking alcohol, or isn't clearly mentioned in Scripture, such as wearing jewelry, but that might cause other Christians to stumble, would it be better to give up our Christian liberties altogether, or just when we're with someone who is offended by it?
For those activites that are mentioned in Scripture, and magicians are mentioned, it is best IMO to really study the matter, pray for discernment and wisdom, and also look at the life of Christ and the apostles and others in the NT for the methods they chose to use in proclaiming the gospel as well as the ongoing teaching of people after their new birth.
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Paul's response was that if it offended his brother that he ate meat, he'd never eat meat again. But that was out of his brotherly love in not wanting to offend another. Yet it's not always that easy to just give up what we like because of another's weakness. And we don't always know what offends others until we've already done something to offend them. And then, what if another who won't eat meat offends the one who does? It's a slippery slope. There's Romans 14:16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of. Paul goes on to say not to eat or drink anything that would cause a brother to stumble but then in vs. 22 he says "have it to thyself before God". So it seems to have been Paul's choice to have it not at all, but the point is to not use it to cause another to stumble. We're free to have it as we feel led, but to keep peace, it may be best to do so not in another's presence.
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I like your response a lot. You are still growing and learning. There are many ways of making the weaker stumble. While I've considered myself as having a very weak faith for the most part, and realize now that I was never really strong in any areas of faith, I know that I've caused people to stumble, as well as have experienced stumbling blocks.
My own personal view of magic is that I have a sensitive conscience towards it and feel it is a sin. I took my son to a magic show once a long time ago and was very much convicted as I sat through it. I will never do it again. I won't even watch movies about magic. Love you ...
I like the comment David made in my discussion where I asked What does Paul mean in 1 Corinthians 9:19-23?
http://www.allaboutgod.net/forum/topics/what-does-paul-mean-in-1-co...
David said:"It looks however the Spirit leads us to act and react with the individual before us. With some, we don't engage in explaining our freedoms in Christ, we simply don't do what we would otherwise do. We don't even let them know we are placing our freedoms on hold because of them, we simply love them how the Spirit leads us to love them. With others we may be led to explain why we are free to do what we do. Yet with other, we go ahead and practice the liberties we have in Christ, because we discerned that they want to take us back to a mold that Christ's work broke. With others, even though we discerned they long to get us in a yoke of slavery, we do not practice our liberties, because God calls us to love them in such a manner at that time, even when their intentions are malicious. Our interaction with individuals will depend on God's leading and if we err, we want to make sure we err on the side of love.
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While I've considered myself as having a very weak faith for the most part, and realize now that I was never really strong in any areas of faith
I'm still in Matthew. I got caught up in 13 today:
4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
I've heard it so many times but some understanding dawned on me this morning. I always tried figuring out which one I was:
By the wayside, or one that hears the Word but doesn't understand it since when growing there are times we don't always understand it (like having read Matthew 13 repeatedly until this dawned on me).
Into stony places? I always thought stony places meant in hard times or in trouble. And they receive it, but because of the trouble they're offended and fall away, or only endure for a while. But it doesn't say that. Gill likens stony places to those who sit through it all their lives hearing the Word and are partly convicted by it but don't have a real understanding or hold on it. It says stony places and then says when tribulation or persecution ariseth....so if stony places meant hard times or trouble, why would it not have said: he that received the seed in tribulation or persecution?
Among the thorns? I thought that struggling to pay bills or just getting some rest was the same as care of this world. But it doesn't say that. It speaks of those who care for being deceitful or those seeking after riches.
I wanted myself to fall into good ground but always wondered until this stood out to me in verse 23:
which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
Not everyone is going to bear great fruit, but they will bear some fruit. I don't pray now that I am the good ground but that I'm one that bears a hundredfold fruit. So now I go back:
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Here again, I've heard it preached that this referred to being given in abundance (monetarily). But it's speaking of the one that has the Word, the one to whom their heart was opened unto Christ's message. Therefore..."he shall have more abundance".
One may have weak faith, but to "whosoever hath (faith), to him shall be given (fruit), and he shall have more abundance (faith and fruit)".
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Hello all/Beloved,
Paul became all things to all people in order to win some to Christ.
1 Corinthians 9:22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.
Romans 9 I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit— 2 I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, 4 the people of Israel.
Magic shows as you have describe them Char are perfectly ok in Church. We do all we can to teach God's people and to convey God's Gospel to the lost.
The problem is the word "Magic" for we know that in a different context that word takes a radically different meaning. Disney movies are full of "clean innocent magic" supposedly, but its nothing more than witchcraft the majority of the time. Hence, we are hesitant every time the word magic is use, for more often than not it is synonymous to witchcraft and Satanism.
LOve you all... :)
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Well look what the cat drug in! ;-)
Thanks David, that's what I was thinking. I think "magic" becomes a catch-all word to describe demonic trickery and teaching tools. Jesus turned water into wine but it wasn't called magic. He did it to show the glory of God and show who He was. Those that Pharaoh called in to dispute Moses by turning their own staffs into snakes...that was "magic". Sometimes we can get hung up on a word. It can also be a reason for some misconceptions of scriptures. We try to define the meaning of a Greek or Hebrew word into a current word, when words they used sometimes meant several things dependent upon context.
I see we can also apply this concept of a "word" to say...Christmas. Some see it as demonic because of the myth of santa, or the decorations and ancient worshiping of trees. Others call it "Christ"mas in honor of Christ. It's all in a word.
It kinda reminds me of an example I heard someone give one time of how we can say the same thing two different ways that make it sound totally different. IE:
You tell a beautiful woman: You have a face that could stop time.
Or you tell a woman: You have a face that could stop a clock.
One will get you in good graces and the other get you knocked flat on your back. ;-)
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