All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
Love Your Enemy
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Permalink Reply by Jane Smith on
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Peace Bev,
Now this is good. You have laid the foundation for what the Bible says. So then how is this lived out when bad stuff is going on? For ex. let's say a wife finds out that her husband is committing adultery, or let's say a father is physically abusing his children or lets say someone is a child molester, a drug pusher or a serial killer...you know, all the really bad crimes that go on in our families or someone else's family. It's one thing when someone is simply not a Christian and acts rude and crude, but what about when one is into really bad behaviors and is creating havoc in the lives of their family or others- what does it mean to love your enemies in that case?
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Bev,
Agreed, we are all sinners so none of us is better then the other. Christ forgave our sins so we must forgive others sins/transgressions against us. Now when you say that doesn't mean we have to associate with someone who is actively into abusive or criminal behaviors, what do you mean by that? Let's say one's spouse, child, parent, sibling or extended family member is the person who is violating him, does that mean the right thing to do is cut oneself off from that person ( not associate with) until he takes responsibility for his actions through seeking godly counsel, repentance and making amends, while at the same time one should walk in forgiveness and prayer for the offender?
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Permalink Reply by a servant (Chris) on
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Love and Like can be miles apart.
We are told to love and w/ Jesus we can do all things.
Yet, to like someone or thing in different.
Bev and Jane I liked all that you said.
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Chris,
Thank you and I liked your points too.
Bev,
Agree again, because I was speaking of the very serious offenders that are sometimes our own family members. I believe exactly what you said that I will always show love unless that person is lying to me or attempting to use me for devious purposes. If the person shows me he is repentant and taking good steps to grow and change, I will do anything to help him. I do not believe we are showing love, however, if we allow ourselves to be doormats or pushovers for an offending family member's devious purposes. That is not love- that is enabling.
I think the hard part is to not get exasperated and take things personally when a family member lies to us or attempts to use us. We must always separate the sin from the sinner, but that is not always easy to do as our emotions get in the way. We don't think our spouse, child or other family members are going to defraud us, but if they are caught up in sin they will. It is not easy when we have invested years of our lives into them and they make ungodly choices, to accept that they could do that to us. But the truth is it is not us they are defrauding, it's God.
It takes a lot of strength that only God can provide to draw proper boundary lines and stand firm in the situation demonstrating that we must always put God first and not compromise with sin, even if it is in regard to our own family member. We love them and we need/want their love, but we can never turn our eyes from our loved ones sin and pretend we don't see it. Should we have to disassociate from them temporarily or permanently it is a painful thing. But I believe that is what God calls us to do if they refuse to surrender to Him and continue in grievous behaviors. In cases like this, we continue to pray and keep the door open for reconciliation, but must go on with our lives without them. As much as we wish they would do what is right the choice is up to them. Few of us are prepared when these situations occur, but we must learn what to do and we will.
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Here is another example of what I mean. Let's say someone murdered your child. Worse than that, like cases that come on tv just about every day, let's say someone abducted, molested, raped, tortured and murdered your child, what would you feel towards that person? Of course, it would be natural to feel intense hatred even to the point of going to the trial with a weapon to kill him. In fact, some parents have done this and were found not guilty due to temporary insanity. But what is the Bible response that God requires of us? Should we feel pity for the person who did this, pray for him each day, go to see him in prison and tell him you forgive him?
My point is it is one thing to love and forgive someone that doesn't directly live with us or affect our life, but when someone harms us or our loved ones it is not as easy to love that person. We don't have to like them, but if it is so painful to even think of that person and only natural to want to speak of how we hate that person, then how do we love them as God commands us to do?
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Yes, goes without saying Michelle. Would love to hear some testimonies of how believers have loved their enemies.
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HI Char,
I just saw your post here as I haven't checked my page lately. You make some great points. I so agree that hurt ppl hurt ppl. I know of a case where a step-daughter was molested by her step-father. It is strongly suspected that either he was molested when he was a child or something else just as harsh happened to him be it verbal or physical abuse. So, yes it behooves the one abused to forgive or he/she will become bitter and take things out on someone else or suffer internally. It really helps when the offender apologizes. Do you feel the apology was sincere in your case?
Either way one must forgive. We just had another thread about this. I stated that it is impossible to meet Jesus and not forgive others as He has forgiven us our sins- that if someone who calls oneself a believer doesn't forgive then he has never really been to the Cross. I say more in the thread so check it out.
But how has your situation turned out? I think it is important for one to find true healing. This takes work to understand what happened and what should be done about it. We can't just forgive and then try to put it out of out mind. We have to forgive, but then study and or get counseling to understand why the offense happened and what our response should be. So, what have you done in this dept.?
Re the situation with your parents, I don't know the situation, but you need to know how to listen to the Holy Spirit for whether to live with them or find another home. You seem to say they treat you badly. I do not believe God wants you to live in that. If He doesn't He will make a way of escape. If it is just minor mistreatment that's one thing, but if it is severe He will take you out of there.
Glad at least that you are understanding forgiveness. Sounds like you are growing and learning how to heal from abuse.
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Dear Char,
First I want to preface my posts by saying I am not a licenced counselor. I did go to college to become a counselor, but then God took me in another direction. He showed me that very few ppl choose to change so I would get very discouraged as a counselor who sat at a desk trying to help ppl. He changed my calling to that of a witness for Him. He showed me I was to deliver the truth and if a person didn't want truth it was not my responsibility to go any further with it.There's more to it, but just explaining my changed role.
But I do have experience in areas of abusive behaviors due to deep study and prayer on my part and I love to share with ppl how they can get set free. So in my posts I speak as someone who is lead by the Holy Spirit which is something any believer who has been baptized in the HS can and should do I feel. I feel the Word says that believers are to counsel/minister each other. I have learned a lot, but surely don't know everything and am just as ministered to by my brothers and sisters in Christ. Some who say they are believers put more stock in a licensed counselor, lets say a Christian counselor. And Christian counselors are good, but I put the most stock in the counsel of the Holy Spirit, so believe what God shows you in my words and leave the rest Just wanted you and others to know that is my position.
I meant did you feel your Uncle's apology to you was heartfelt? Did he fully own what he did or not? And are you sayig you reached out to your uncle because you heard he was going to church? I mean what was it mainly that made you reach out to him? Was it something that you felt you needed to do for your own healing or mainly for his sake? I am asking you these questions as I have been in a similar situatuation with a person although not sexual abuse and I have learned some things about why I forgave that person.
Re your mother, yes I know it is a common thing for mothers in these situations to either protect their own image, or sometimes it is because they are scared of the perpretrator and beatened down in ways that they don't have the emotional strength to protect their children. They can even be brainwashed such as is the case with the cult story that has been in the news lately.
When you say your mother is a very critical person, similar to the way that you said hurt ppl hurt ppl, do you know much about her upbringing and what caused her to be so critical?
Do you mind saying how old you are and how long you've known the Lord? I agree that listening to the HS if he wants you to remain with your mother for now is the thing to do. What are ways you've learned to handle your Mom's criticisms? In what ways have you seen healing between you that you can feel comfortable enough living with your mom?
Please forgive all the questions, but this is how I minister to ppl. Often counseling and ministry is absent in churches, so members keep things to themselves. But the Bible says the older women are to teach the younger. And I think when one brings things out into the light that is when healing occurs. It doesn't happen overnight, but is a process. I minister to ppl on boards or in private emails, whatever they are comfortable with. It is good when ministry takes place publicly because then it helps others. But either way, we in the Body of Christ should be ministering to one another.
God Bless,
Jane
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Hi Char,
Were you saved when you reached out to your Uncle? Have you had any further communication with him or was it just the one email? Trying to understand the continuity of how you took this step so I can reply further on this. But yes you are correct that forgiving one who has wronged us in a very serious way, does not mean we have to befriend them or renew our relationship with them. I feel the only way that that can happen is if the perpetrator truly owns his problem and does the work to change. Then, sometimes, it is possible to reestablish the relationship.
The fact that we forgive is the main part. It sets us free and sets the perpetrators free if they want to be free and work on themselves. Even if they do choose to work on themselves, it can take a long time, so naturally the clock often runs out for them to reestablish a relationship with those they have harmed. That, sadly, is the price they often have to pay for their transgression.
But sometimes, transgressors do the work of healing themselves faster and there is still time left to reestablish relationships, to one degree or another, that they had destroyed. So, it all depends on how much the perpetrator is willing to put into it. Another factor that enters into it when it comes to a situation like child sexual abuse is whether its the child's own father or if its someone else such as a step-father, brother, uncle, cousin, family friend, neighbor or stranger.
The most important thing is that there is forgiveness and growing peace for all concerned and in the end each goes to Heaven where all is well forevermore if they accept Christ and obey God's Word.
Re you mom and her sin of a critical spirt, it is often unknown what the cause is. For one thing, your mom might come from a generaltion or a family system that is not open, so she has learned to keep her true feelings or things that happened to her in her growing up years to herself. Are your aunts and other family members on your mom's side open ppl?
How do you know your mom is really saved as opposed to just being a church goer? It is one thing to know about the Cross and say one bleives and is saved, but it is another to obey the Word. We are not saved if we don't obey the Word.
Do you mean you moved in your parents home as they needed your help with things as aging parents do? I definitely understand what you mean about the fact that you feel the Lord has you there to teach you to be selfless and giving. It is great that you are humbling yourself and see improvements between you and your mom. I know it is not easy to have to go to your room to get away from the strife at times. No one should have to live like that. When you're being there has served its purpose, God will have something better for you.
Again since you don't know the true story of why your mom feels hate for your bio dad, this is something you will probably find out in time when God is ready to reveal it. If your bio-dad treated your mom bad or was abusive to her, it may be that she has never found healing for it and is too hurt to be in the same room with him. Similar to you and your abuser, she may never be comfortable being in his presence if he hasn't made amends to her and worked on himself. But I don't know the true situation so am just giving you possible explanations. Re your uncle, yes it is possible that he might of abused his sisters. Does you mom have a relationship with him considering what he did to you?
Healing is often a slow process, but as a believer now seeking to walk in God's ways you will grow in God's peace more and more, and the more you study the Word and apply it to your life, the day will come when you are totally set free from the past. Your greatest peace will come from helping set others free who are going through abuse situations when you become free. You have a great attitude now and I know you will grow well in the Lord.
God Bless you today and I praise Him for your continued healing!
Jane
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Hi Char,
I don't understand the thing with the lack of reply buttons either. Can someone please explain it as it makes it awfully hard to reply to a post that is 3 posts down.
Maybe I am misunderstanding, but why would your Uncle's girlfriend be allowed to babysit with strict orders to keep him out- makes no sense. Is this one reason you mean that you could not trust your mom?
When someone is going through abuse it is common to think it is only happening to him/her. Shame keeps one from talking about it to others. Like you said, with time and talking to other members of the family more comes out.
From the way you describe it sounds like your mom and dad wound up in a Pentecostal type church or even a cult, but just because she/they started doing all those religious things does not mean they are truly saved. They might of gotten religion not salvation. But then again, like you said, maybe they got saved but only chose to grow to a certain point and got comfortable. My opinion of that is it puts them in the lukewarm category and anyone who is lukewarm is not going to Heaven, so to me it's the same as losing ones salvation. I have watched Joyce Myer and I think some of the things she says are right on, but don't find all her teaching sound. When I was young in the Lord, I loved the teaching of so many of the preachers and teachers on t.v., but with time and learning how to listen to the Holy Spirit for myself, the very thing they taught, I saw through most of them to where today, there are very few on tv I feel are balanced.
Your mom should not have a real good relationship with your Uncle Bill who sexually abused you. she should of been standing up for you and helping to resolve the situation with her brother against you her daughter. I can well understand why you lost trust and respect for her. In abuse situations the family often covers up for the abuser rather then expose what he has done. Sometimes they don't want to be the ones to get him in trouble. Other times they fear the abuser, too, because its because they are doing something in their lives that they fear the abuser will get them in trouble for. So, they are in a catch 22 situation and don't insist he get help or turn him in.The devil who orchestrates his abuse knows all this and keeps the other hands tied.
It is also a common thing for one who doesn't get along with parents due to their poor parenting to marry the first person who comes along to escape and get away from them, but it rarely works out.
The pattern of sexual abuse often repeats itself in what sadly happened to your 4 yr old. Thank God you came back to God then.
You must of had some kind of relationship with your parents or you wouldn't of been able to stand moving back in with them. Are you saying that you felt led to write the email to Bill when you did and that you felt able to speak to him on the phone that night due to patching things up a little in the email communication?
When you describe your boyfriend as a strong man of God, a strong man of God doesn't have the pattern he had. Please try to listen to what I am saying here Char. You were in a vulnerable situation and so was he. Both of you needed healing before entering into a boyfriend girlfriend situation. In fact, saying he was your boyfriend is not even a godly way to say it. I would strongly suggest to you that you read the book "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" by Josh Harris to understand the correct way to enter into a courtship with a godly Christian man. Not saying he couldn't be the right one for you in time, because I find you to be very spiritual. But just saying we have a lot of learning to do when we come to the Lord and I can hear from things you are saying here that you are rushing ahead of God. I read where Nancy cautioned you accordingly on another subject. Please read the book and then tell me what you think. I am very impressed with your quick and ongoing growth, just asking you to slow down a bit and allow others to counsel you a bit, because marriage is a very important decision with long lasting effects. Allow those who love you in Christ and are objective help you with your upcoming decisions Allow God to heal you more from what you went through years ago with your parents and uncle, because until that healing is more complete, believing for and entering into a marriage is premature. It is often said that marriage is 50-50. But marriage is actually 100-100. It takes 2 whole ppl to make a marriage work and even then it must be lead of God..
Love in Jesus,
Jane
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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The lack of a "reply button" happens when we reach the maximum number of new responses to a particular post. When one responds to a response it indents to the right. After about 5 or six indentions the system no longer provides a "reply" button. When this happens I usually will drop a not a tthe end stating that I am going to post a new reply from the main box in the particular forum.
Lord Bless,
LT
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Hi Char,
I'm sorry that it has taken me longer than I expected to get back to you. Wanted you to know that I did not forget you. I have read every word of your 2 most recent posts and care very much that you get the counsel and support to know what course to take for your future.
Re judging, there is a big difference in judging and discerning. If your mom and dad say they are saved, go to church all the time etc, but their fruit says otherwise, you need to pray for them. If someone is really saved and baptized in the Holy Spirit, nothing can stop them from growing.
You mention the Cleveland TN Church of God- we once joined a group that met in a rented bldg. in a group of office spaces. The leader was very charismatic and definitely had a gift of teaching, but after a few times I discerned he was a false teacher. The group was becoming cultish and we got out. Interesting that he was from your church. Not saying anything is wrong with your church, just that this man was really off.
I'm telling you about this man, because we have to be very discerning re the decisions we make for our lives. The devil is very cunning and he can make us think its God when its really him giving us dreams and visions. Not saying yours are not from God, and I do very much believe that God speaks to us this way, but just saying to always be cautious, especially when it comes to making the decision to enter into a relationship with a man for the purpose of marriage. Because the enemy loves nothing more then to set a trap for vulnerable sisters when it comes to marriage.
Re false teachers on tv or otherwise, it is possible to get saved, baptized in the Holy Spirit and experience other spiritual experiences and giftings while listening to them, because it is not them and the fact that they are false teachers that matters, it is because if someone sincerely wants God and hears the Word it is the Word they are responding to. But false teachers will be judged of God. Every preacher and teacher teaches a measure of truth and error. Its when they teach more error then truth that one must be discerning that they are false. The more one reads the Word with a heart to know truth, the more discerning one will become easily seeing if someone teaches something that does not line up with the Word.
Re your former husband, the sexual sins he was into are in the background of most every predator. God will reveal to you someday if he molested your son or not. You need to know the truth of what happened, because you might need to warn others so it does not happen to another child.
In the situation with the man you planned to marry, he did not protect your purity and you didn't protect his. I know you both regret it and you are seeking the Lord so that never happens again. But this is where you have to really stop, think and pray so that you don't get involved again with him for the wrong reasons. Again I know you are viewing this possible reunion with the right reasons this time. But what I am trying to say is, you can even have the right reasons, but have the wrong man.
First of all,. to marry, you have to become a whole and stable woman, and the man has to become a healed man. To enter a relationship before you each has done the work to become healed is a prescription for failure.
I hear you saying that you want to care for this man and his children. Women are nurturers by nature. So your desire is normal, but the thing I do not hear you saying is that "you" deserve to be loved and cherished. Often women think that if they love and take care of a man ( and in this case, his children, too) that they can fix him. They feel sorry for him that his family and his previous girlfriends or wives didn't appreciate him. They think if they do then the men will be loved so much that they will change. I hope you do not think anything like this. I'm just checking, because I can tell you it never works. Both of you have baggage from the past that must be healed before you should ever so much as become friends again.
And I want to caution you about the very definite statement he made to you where he said you would stop loving him like everyone else has once you get to know him. The thing that is so interesting about this statement to me is, so many sisters I have ministered to told me that their men made the identical statement to them. They didn't want to believe it at the time, because they thought they would be the one whose love helped him change. Something I have learned in life is, if someone tells you something about themselves like that believe them as in almost every case it turns out to be true!
Never ever enter a relationship until both you and the one you are interested in have done the work to become whole and God has fully shown both of you that you are His choice for each other. Anyone can get married while only kidding themselves that they have it together when they really don't. Enjoy the gift of your singleness and if you desire to be married really prepare yourself. Read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" and you will understand the points I have made to you in this post much better.
In this book one of the first things you will learn is to not ever be alone with or monopolize all your time with a man or you will go over emotional and other lines you should not go over. I pray you will give yourself a new start and really know for sure if this man is the right man for you or not. Until you can be single without being lonely you are not ready for a relationship.
So often, sisters rush into a wrong marriage because they are running away from a bad family situation, don't have the wherewithal to adequately support themselves and other reasons. They are in a lot of delusion telling themselves the man they have encountered must be the right one. Really seek God in this area not rushing things and He will reveal to you His perfect will for you.
I wish sisters had more support to be prepared to manage in their singleness so they can know if they are to marry or not. I think it is a very big problem within the Church today that single sisters are not better protected and cared for so they are safe and secure in their singleness. I somehow don't think it was ever God's will for sisters to be out in the world like men working jobs and living alone.
It seems that if He was not calling certain women to marriage that He would have a safe environment for them within the Church. I wonder how this was handled in the early Church, because ever since, many a sister has found herself in a wrong marriage and there has been much suffering for them and their children. I surely don't know all the answers, but of one thing I'm sure, most sisters marry the wrong man and that has to mean something. If you get it right you will be one of the few who does. It may be the greater lesson is that we sincerely seek to be in God's will whether we accomplish it this side of Heaven or not.
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