All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
Love Your Enemy
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Permalink Reply by Jane Smith on
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Hi Char,
What I mean by nothing can stop us from growing if we are saved and have the baptism of the Holy Spirit is, nothing or no one can stop us if we choose to keep growing. There are those who are saved and even have the precious empowerment of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, but if they choose to stop growing, then that is their choice. Its like the saying "use it or lose it". False teachers will come along, churches we are in might teach in error and influence us to follow wrong teachings, but the Holy Spirit will reveal to us when something is off. We then have the choice to stay in error or get out of it. Often brethren put being comfy in their social family in church above obedience to the Holy Spirit. It is no longer about growing in Christ and serving the Lord, but about social acceptance. No we have to keep our eyes on Jesus and be willing to refuse to compromise with wrong teaching if the HS leads us out of a church or out of any situation that is not of Him. Yes, no church is perfect, but that's not the point. It's about listening to the HS and allowing Him to take us out of our comfort zone wherever that might take us to walk in truth.
If God is leading us, yes He will confirm it. I am saying that satan certainly can deceive us. He can mimic the works of God, so just saying we must be careful to confirm that those who share visions, dreams, prophesies etc. with us are hearing from God. There are lots of loose cannons around who are not of God or who miss God. I see what you mean that you feel the visions etc you and your close sisters received was from God and that God is dealing with you re your flesh pattern of skipping out on things. That's good, but doesn't necessarily mean He is guiding you into a relationship with a man who needs to take the responsibility of self examination. Pray for him yes, think the best of him yes, but he has serious work to do that you can not do for him and you have work of your own to do.
Yes, certainly no two ppl are perfect when they get married and healing is a lifelong process. but what I am saying is, I do not believe as you do that 2 broken ppl should go into marriage without first examining themselves to make sure that one or both are not hiding their true selves from the other person, that they are on the same page with their faith, that they are compatible and that if they have any deep issues that they have not dealt with that must be taken care of first. I feel most ppl don't even consult God on whether the person they want to marry is His choice or have any idea what a Christian marriage is. If and only if one is lead of God to enter into a courtship with someone, or they think they are, that is the time to confirm that they are His choice for each other. Usually couples put forth their best side when they first meet and date American style. They are not being real with each other. All kinds of emotions arise as in they dreamily think they are right for each other when they don't even know what they are doing and have certainly not examined themselves. Hormones kick in and brains go out the window.Then when they are married they are in the shock of their lives that the person they married, either one or both, is not who they thought he/she was. Re the statement of Joyce Meyer's husband, Dave, about him desiring God to send him a broken person to marry, I would not agree with that. I think there are a lot of statements in Christian circles, sermons etc that sound good, even godly, on the outside, but are not in fact God's will. Yes, of course, once married couples might find that they each have issues they didn't even know they had and they will minister to each other. But to go into marriage desiring a broken person to marry I don't buy that. And again, when I say broken, we are all broken, none are perfect marriage material, but going into marriage blindly with the idea that we are so in love and God will take care of everything once we are married is not the way to go about it in my opinion.
You know, it is really sad that so many of us are not prepared from our earliest years by Christian parents to know what we are growing up for and to be prepared for marriage and other events in our lives. Many if not most of us are really at a handicap when the time in our lives comes to fill these roles. Its never too late to learn, but we need a reality check about jumping into relationships and roles prematurely. Most think oh its just a natural thing of life, boy meets girl, they date, marry and have children. Oh but then it goes on, problems occur between them as they weren't on the same page to begin with, they divorce, ruin their lives and their childrens' lives, are ineffective for Christ. I'm just saying that I think more preparation should go into marital relationships. Why do pastors even marry couples who clearly are not God's will for each other? What is wrong with the Church that is has just as bad a track record as the world when it comes to failed marriages. Obviously there has to be more to being prepared for marriage and being lead of God for a couple to marry.
You say the man you are interested in got cold feet for the reasons you stated. What about his children? What has their dad done to help them with their healing from his divorce? Where is their mother/s? I don't mean that you can never enter a friendship with this man until you are both totally healed, but that the healing has to begin first for all involved, not after the honeymoon. Granted this is not an easy thing to accomplish. But most couples seem to think that they will figure things out after they marry. Things don't get better after the ceremony, they get tougher if the preparation for a relationship and marriage were not there in the first place. God is in the business of redeeming ppl, but its important not to get the cart before the horse.
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Hi Char,
I have read everything you have said about why you think Randy is God's will for you. Is it at the point now where you both feel this way and plan to marry in time? What steps are you both taking to get counseling for past issues? I like watching the Dr. Phil show. He says he is a Christian, but cusses, acts prideful, arrogant and judgmental at times, thus sizes things up wrong fairly often and has some counseling approaches I don't favor. But he is a very likeable guy and does get it exactly right at times. He takes the approach that couples often need individual counseling first, and then when past issues are healed he has them go into couples counseling. This I do favor. So, what sources do you have for an appropriate person/s to counsel you?
In some churches, pastoral or other Christian counseling is non-existant. But in others, the pastor and/or designated others do counsel. Even if your church does offer counseling, it must be balanced counseling. .Once you have gone through this process "successfully", if you still feel God is saying you are his choice for each other then it would be the time to proceed to a courtship.
So, the next question is, do you fully understand what Christian courtship is? Do you have godly believers in your life who would be willing to serve in the capacity of spending time with you and Randy to oversee your courtship? To best understand courtship, again, I would recommend you both read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye", because the author explains it so well. You need to enlist the service of those close believing family and friends who will tell you the truth about whether they see you and Randy as being God's choice for each other or not.
You SHOULD NOT give this job to those who will simply tell you what you want to hear or who aren't truthful about such matters, fickle etc. If you have noticed when a woman ( or man ) says she thinks she has found the right one, almost everyone without exception says just one thing, "well congratulations when's the wedding?". They do not give an ounce of thought or care to if their friend or sister in Christ has made a tragic mistake in judgement. No, they are excited to attend the wedding, to get dressed up, enjoy all the food and a piece of the wonderful wedding cake!
I don't know if you can see where I am coming from, but I feel we have to be honest with each other on such an important decision as this. Christian brethern and other friends and family also think that even if they don't think much of the peron's chosen fiance that it is none of their business to say otherwise, and if they get a divorce down the road, there's nothing they could of said to stop it. And yet another thing they think is, if they don't like the chosen fiance, if they say something to that effect that will only drive the sister closer to him.
Well, I can only say I find all of this to be wrong. If you have friends or family members who have the slightest reservation about Randy, you should be listening. Sure, they could be completely wrong if their reservations are for the wrong reason. You must listen to the Spirit above all. But I am just saying, it is essential to not deny the opinion of anyone who speaks up should they see something they are uncomfortable with. Don't just poo poo it away, because you happen to disagree with them on other matters. Be glad they spoke up. Then balance everything voiced by what the Spirit shows you, taking your time and not jumping ahead of yourself.
If you get to the courship stage observe how Randy treats you under a number of different conditions in varying situations. Observe how he treats his children, his family and others in his life.. If you see any red flags don't ignore them and think oh once we are married my love for him will cause him not to be that way anymore.
It is good that you say you love Randy unconditionally now, but you can not be his sole counselor for this process. He has to want healing and pursue it before a courtship should ever begin. Likewise you must seek your own healing. As you said, you see that his issues are heavier then yours. That's why he needs to counsel with those who understand his issues in ways you don't.
From what you have said, Randy is a runner big time, and you have been a runner as well. What you said about Randy not being able to control boundary lines with you and then leaving the church in deep depression and despair, turning to a bottle- this is no small matter, this shows deep issues.
There is no issue that Jesus can not heal, so if Randy is willing to do the work things can turn out great for you both. Randy has to fully choose to do the work and you have to do the work and not jump ahead of yourselves. If you can both committ to do what it takes then I would believe you have a shot at a marriage working. I hope as you say that God is in this and has brought you two together to compliment each other. But I believe there is an order to things and it is essential to have a realistic idea of what is ahead rather then a pie in the sky attitude.
Re the Meyers marriage you don't know them personally and don't know what kind of marriage they have up close. Anyone can put on a good act on the outside- I've known many who have.
Re my comments about pastors marrying couples, I mean I believe there should be premarital counseling and pastors should pray about whether the couple is in God's will or not. You said they can't know this and it is none of their business essentially. I disagree, I think they certainly can know if they see that a couple is not strong enough in their faith to marry, if they are hiding issues with no plan to deal with them etc. And I think pastors have a duty before God not to marry a couple who is immature or is for any reason unequally yoked. I wish there were more pastors who sought the Lord on behalf of couples rather then marrying couples without a second thought. I don't believe pastors should be a party to a couple's delusion if they are in fact unprepared for marriage and/or not even God's choice for each other.
More than anyone else right now, I am concerned about your son. He, most of all, needs healing for his young life, for the loss of his father and the possible sexual abuse before being brought into a blended family with all the challenges that presents. How have you gone about finding counselors for him that you know are godly and can minister to him? If your relationship with Randy proceeds, you must be sure Randy can love him as his own since his biological dad has forfeited that role.
I am praying for you, Char, in this process of discovery and know that as long as you put God first He will bring you through!
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Yes, Char, I know you said you are not seeing Randy now, but feel God is preparing you both to get back together. Just wasn't sure of how much communication you have had with him if at all. Glad to hear that Randy treats others well and one of the reasons he put a halt to your relationship was to work on healing for his children. Understand what you mean about the negativity you've had from your parents. Sorry to hear that you do not agree with my beliefs on courtship. I often do not agree with others' beliefs so certainly respect your right to disagree with mine. So, no hard feelings and I will certainly keep you and Randy in my prayers.
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Hi Char,
It "sounds like" Randy has some exceptional qualities, so I can see why you love him. But it takes time to get to know a person under varying conditions. The very qualities you now see as good could be the reverse of what you see due to underlying motivations that you are unaware of currently. Not saying they are, just that they could be. That is where courtship comes in. I'm sorry if you think the type of courtship God has shown me is antiquated and extreme. God gave me the answer about courtship when I spent much time in prayer asking Him what a real marriage in Christ is and what the road is to get there. I was so blessed by what He taught me. And the neat thing is, He revealed it to me one on one through prayer and then totally confirmed what He taught me when I went to a Christian book store one day and Josh Harris's book practically jumped off the shelf at me. Anytime that has ever happened to me, it is always God. His book totally blessed my socks off- I recognized it as truth as I had a total peace. It is such a beautiful teaching that that is why I said if a person never even got married, because it was not God's will for them, he/she would be happy for the rest of their life just knowing the truth about what a real marriage is instead of being confused by the fairytale version that most think it is. So, I don't know how I can help you unless you are agreeable to take a look at Josh's book and see for yourself if you still disagree with what I am telling you about why a godly courtship is so essential. I know you are not at that stage yet, but one day you might be with Randy or someone else. So now is the time to look into this. Despite Randy's good qualities, it does not dismiss the fact that he has serious work to do on his healing, and like I said, although it is very loving of you that you wish to get across to him that you identify with his past hurts and believe in him, don't you think there are plenty of other women who have shown the same kind of love and support to their husbands while the husband continues to run away from himself and exhibits self-hate, destroys the marriage and the lives of his children? Sure there are some women who are lousy wives, but there are plenty who are very loving wives yet the husband's problems persist because he is not willing or able to face himself. Maybe there are a small % of men out there that respond to their fiance or wife's love and change. But usually it doesn't happen that way. Randy needs godly counseling/ministry. Even with this, most men never respond and only a small % do. So, if God has told you to wait for Randy, that is one thing, but it is highly doubtful that Randy will be able to face his past hurts based solely on your love. I would counsel any woman not to get into a relationship with a man, especially not a Christian sister, unless he is willing to take steps, and is actively taking them, to face himself and find healing for his future and theirs as a couple. Its gotta be the cart first, the horse next. I know you said you are trying to listen to the Lord and do things in His order. Then I am delivering a message to you about how healing works, not just for Randy, but for you, too, because another thing women do in such relationships is they downplay their own past hurts thinking the fiance or husband's hurts are much worse then their own and they will save the man and they will live happily ever after. When daughters don't see a healthy marriage due to lacking godly parents, they have missing puzzle pieces. The later scenario never works. We must all heal before we can be a suitable life partner for someone else. And then, godly courtship comes into it once a couple has gotten through the healing hurdles to the pre-marriage point. I pray you can hear me, Char, with spiritual ears, but if you can't I hope you will remember what I said one day. I think those who meet and wish to become a couple could very well turn out to be the right ones for each other- its just that they rush it and never give themselves the chance to listen to the Lord and get their lives healed first, really healed, not just a little healed.
God bless, praying for you and Randy,
Jane
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Char,
I am saying if you are sure God has given you His promise that Randy is going to come out of this and you will be married to him then stand firm on God's promise. I am also saying that it is a process which can be short or long depending upon Randy's timetable of fully surrendering to the Lord. Courtship, besides the other purposes I said it serves, is a time for couples to establish if they are healed enough and have the communication to proceed to marriage. Anyone can take short cuts and proceed right to marriage, but I think with most couples God wants a time of singleness to learn to put God first and a time of healing and preparation for a marriage to be strong and lasting.
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Hi Char,
The bottom line on what I am counseling you here is keep listening to the Spirit, continue to make your requests known to the Lord, although just because you ask Him for something does not always mean it is in line with His will and that He will grant it to you, and proceed cautiously as you continue to wait on the Lord. If He has given you His promise and it is truly from Him, because you know how it is that sometimes we think we hear God, but we miss Him. But if it is truly of Him it will come to pass with no help from you.
I feel that I speak God's truth when I say that I do not believe God puts a couple together as far as marriage until they both are ready to walk as one, meaning that neither is perfect and one may of had worse issues then the other, but I do not feel He wishes them to join in marriage until both have done the work to heal their pasts and are able to join as a team that will be brutally honest with each other, no secrets, no hiding from each other, no prideful or fearful behaviors, in order to serve the Lord together as opposed to becoming stumbling blocks for each other and any children involved.
It would be wonderful if God restores your relationship with Randy and the children involved find healing and have two parents who love them and will teach them God's ways in unity. Please know that I understand that no couple will be perfect, but I do think there has to be a high degree of honesty, openness, maturity and communication for a marriage to be of God.
I think most couples jump ahead of God and then it rarely works. I don't think loneliness is a good reason to marry someone. I think until a person can be alone with Himself and God and learn to walk in God's peace that passes understanding, he/she is not ready for a partnership with another person.
Until the sister knows her role and the brother knows his role so it can truly be a partnership, and they are committed to not blaming the other when differences of opinion come up, but have the maturity to know how to work things through, they are not ready.
Again, this is what courtship is for. And where courtship has to differ from typical dating where one just looks pretty and never is honest or disagrees, courtship has to be a committment to get honest.
I believe the Lord has the right person for those He desires to marry and that, yes, He will guide them when the time is right to court and marry. No one is a perfect couple, but I think there are those who are proven couples, so to speak,- couples who truly meet God's requirements for marriage. I am saying that most couples marry despite the requirements and hope that the marriage will be the playing ground or proving ground where they work everything out between themselves. I am saying I think that's backwards and the reason most marriages don't succeed.
And re your young son, I visited your page recently and my goodness God has blessed you with a precious and very handsome little boy- I know that you want healing for him. Is the specialist you have for him a Christian? Because sexual abuse of children is a subject that is very near and dear to my heart having ministered to those who are dealing with this issue and just in the fact that this atrocity is everywhere these days. I think if I was to major in one issue it would be this one and related ones as it so angers me to see how satan is trying to destroy our children in these last days.
Just want to say that I have studied this subject and have looked into secular groups that specialize in child sexual abuse, and like any church, there is a measure of truth that they know, but when groups are not Christian in orientation they do children and grown victims of secual abuse a great disservice as their advice excludes God and his solutions.
So, don't know if the specialist you have is a godly Christian or not, but just want to say beware if he isn't as more damage than good can be done. Just study and stay open to hear from the Lord for who or what sources He wants you to find to bring healing to your son. He will let you know how far to go with this and whether you find the best help, or not, the Lord sees your efforts in his behalf, knows your son better than you do, and He will open or close doors accordingly.
He knows if your son will one day choose to come out of the abuse or not. We can never make life choices for anyone but ourselves, not even our children whom we love so much. In the end each person chooses. Our job is to do all we can to obey the Lord, and in doing so, we give those we are responsible for every chance to do the same.
Likewise, Randy's children. If you get back together with Randy, they will need strong parents to assist them in their healing process and guide them. Often times pppl minimize the effects of divorce. Divorce, as I'm sure you well know, is like a living death for children, it is an assassination of their very personhood, so much love and gudance is needed for them to recover from it.
I will be praying for you and Randy and the kids and interested to hear how things are going. However it turns out, you can not lose when you stay strong in Christ. We all want the perfect, overcoming marriage and family, but I have learned that whether we achieve it or not, because we can not control the choices of others, God is pleased when we grow in Christ likeness. The life we live here with all the hopes and dreams we have for ourselves is just temporary, but the one we are transferring to is eternal.
God Bless,
Jane
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Hi sister,
Yes I so agree that satan is our enemy not the person who has abused or mistreated us. Nevertheless we have to learn how to deal with each situation as I was telling Char. I read something about abuse in your past. There aren't many ppl who haven't suffered some form of abuse. What have you done to learn about the abuse in your life and get free from it?
Love you too sis!
Jane
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Permalink Reply by jennifer on
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I'm so glad and grateful to read all of your messages regarding this topic. I think forgiveness is the area in which I struggle the most as a Christian . I have recently tried to reconnect with god, and am working towards strengthening our relationship. I find such great strength from all of your messages.
I know god wants us to forgive our enemy with the same love that Jesus has.
I also believe that we will never understand the debth of gods love that's why we're human not god.
in regards to a message how can one ever forgive a person who caused such unbearable pain to a child? please help me understand. I don't know If I could ever find that's kind if forgiveness and love?
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This is what you said in your first post, so yes these are good points. But like I said, there's more to it than this. This is a good beginning though and I know you will keep studying to get the whole picture.
God Bless!
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Hi Jennifer,
So glad you are finding comfort through this site and this thread. Will tell you the same thing I have told the others. You learn to forgive when you have been to the Cross. Just one glimpse of what our Jesus did for you at Calvary and you should be able to forgive others their sins against you instantly. Please go to my post in Nancy's thread in the first section and read it carefully. I do not believe it is possible not to forgive others when you truly realize how Jesus forgave you.
God Bless You,
Jane
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I had asked you about your views about apologies in your other thread. My post was on p.2, but now I think it moved to p.3. I guess you haven't seen it yet. I asked why it is that you don't feel those who have wronged you should apologize to you. Please check out my previous post in your other thread. Also, I know you had to close the thread down. I have not had a chance to read the rest of the thread so wanted you to know that I am not one who did not discern satan's involvement. Yes, obviously he was there causing trouble and miscommunication. I plan to read it tonight or tomorrow, but even with only skimming it I could discern the enemy's involvement. Be encouraged sister- the HS allows us to discern the enemy's devices.
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