All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
Losing Salvation?
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If you could not give up your salvation voluntarily, then once you become saved you could then go ahead and do whatever you wish. You could steal, murder, cheat, lie, never pray, reject the scriptures, lead others astray, blaspheme God from morning to night - do anything that is sinful, rebellious, and against the laws of God. And you could do all this never confessing and never repenting. To believe that "once saved, always saved" is believing that one has a "license to sin" after the person is born again."
LOSING YOUR SALVATION -http://robertwells.tripod.com/losingsalvation.html
YOU CAN'T LOSE YOUR SALVATION OR HAVE IT TAKEN AWAY BUT.......
When you were saved you turned to God. Turning to God means the you have committed your life to trusting and obeying God. In John 1:6-7 it says, "If we claim to have fellowship with Him, yet we walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, then we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son, purifies us from all sin."
According to this text, "If we walk in the darkness, then we do not live by the truth." If our heart is not repentant when we sin, if our attitude is one of disobedience to the Laws and Commandments of God, if we turn away from God, if we live a life of sin, if we decide the effort to lead a Godly life is not worth it, if the actions of our lives indicate that we no longer desire to be one of God's children, then we don't lose our salvation, and salvation isn't taken from us, but we through our own free will, take our salvation and give it back to God. We tell God we don't want it. We give it up!!!
Ezekiel 3:20 "If the righteous turn from their righteousness and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before them, they shall die".
If you could not give up your salvation voluntarily, then once you become saved you could then go ahead and do whatever you wish. You could steal, murder, cheat, lie, never pray, reject the scriptures, lead others astray, blaspheme God from morning to night - do anything that is sinful, rebellious, and against the laws of God. To believe that "once saved, always saved" is believing that one has a "license to sin" after the person is born again."
So ask yourself this question. What is the only way to gain eternal salvation? There are a great many verses that tell us the answer. Below are just two of them:
Ephesians 2:8-9 "By this undeserved kindness, indeed, you have been saved through faith, and this not owing to you, it is God's gift."
1Peter 1:5 "Those who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed on the last day.
God makes salvation completely available through Jesus Christ - and not only to specific individuals, but to all who will receive and believe in Jesus Christ as savior. Jesus made this very clear when he said, "Whoever believes in me would not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) The word "whoever" includes everybody. No person is excluded from the opportunity to believe and receive everlasting life.
Your relationship with God, as well as your eternal salvation are based upon faith. Faith that Jesus Christ is who, and what He says he is. And thus if you are committing those sins mentioned in the above paragraph, then you simply don't believe who Jesus is. A person practicing the above sinful actions, certainly indicates that the person no longer has any faith or belief in Jesus Christ.
In other words you can not walk in the darkness unrepentant and still hold onto your salvation. Keep in mind that repentance is much more than stopping the very act of committing those sins that you are asking forgiveness for. Repentance is actually the act of turning away from doing those sins, of not committing them anymore, of changing your life in such a way as you no longer want or desire to commit those sins. You are the one who decides whether to walk in the light or the darkness. God gave you the free will to make your own choices. If you decide to walk in the darkness then your salvation will not be taken away from you, nor will you lose your salvation. No, what you will do is give up your salvation. You will be telling God that your salvation "is not worth the effort it takes to walk in the light". That you do not wish to have his gift of eternal salvation. That you want to make it through this life on your own without any help from God. That you will follow the ways of the world rather than the ways of our Lord. So your own free will determines whether you are going to keep your salvation or give it up. God allows your eternal future to be in your own hands.
Since your own free will is what determines your eternal destiny, then it is very important to note that God will not force anyone to come to him. He is not going to get down on his knees and beg you to believe him, trust him, or accept him. Nor will he force you to love him or demand your obedience. The choice is up to each one of us whether to surrender our lives and our hearts to God or to refuse his love and his blessings. If you don't want any part of Jesus Christ then he is willing to accept that decision since it was made by you through your own free will.
Our Lord did tell us that once we are saved, once we are looking to him for everything, once we have surrendered completely to him, then no one could snatch us away from him.
John 10:28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand."
So you can't be snatched way, but you sure can walk away.
There are a great many examples of this in the Bible but my favorite is in the book of Mark. It has to do with the story about the time Jesus arrived by boat to a town where he met a demon possessed man who was living in a graveyard. (You can read the entire story in Mark 5:1-21, and it is a great example of people exercising their free will and possibly putting their eternal salvation in jeopardy).
The Bible mentions that this demon possessed man was unusually fierce and dangerous, so much so that the townspeople could not even use the roads in fear that they would be harmed or even killed by this demon possessed man. The demons who resided in this man recognized Jesus and even talked with Jesus, and they knew that Jesus had the power to expel them from the man. So the demons seeing a herd of pigs in the distance, told Jesus that if he was going to expel them from this man, then would Jesus allow the demons to enter into the herd of pigs. So Jesus expelled the demons and the demons left the man and entered into the pigs. Suddenly the pigs realized something was terribly wrong and every single pig rushed over the cliff to their death. The pigs evidently realized that they would rather be dead than to have those demons living within them.
Now the pig herders saw all this happening and they went to the town and told everyone all the details. Verse 17 tells of the townspeople response. "Then the people began to beg Jesus to leave their area." So the response of the townspeople was to tell Jesus to get out of there because they were holding Jesus responsible for the destruction of a whole herd of pigs. They were furious at Jesus because of this economic loss. All that these people could do was to scream at him because they no longer had this herd of pigs. So you can see that the people's only concern was the economic loss of the pigs.
What is really interesting is Jesus's response.
Jesus didn't try to explain to the townspeople that they no longer had to worry about this very dangerous demon possessed man. That he was no longer a threat to their safety. Nor did Jesus ask them if they wanted to know why this formerly demon possessed man was now able to sit there quietly, fully dressed, and in his right state of mind. Nor did he try to tell them that if he could expel demons from this man, then just think of the demons that he could expel from the rest of the townspeople. Neither did Jesus ask the people if they wanted to find out more about this man who could expel demons or why he even did what he did, or why he even came there in the first place. And Jesus certainly didn't argue with the people that the price of the pigs was rather small compared to their peace of mind and their eternal future. Jesus didn't even ask these people if they wanted to learn about the one who sent him. Jesus didn't do any of these things because he could see that the only thing any of these people really cared about was the economic loss of the pigs. They had their minds all made up and money was the number one thing in their lives. They exerted their free will and told Jesus to leave town and leave town now. They had exercised their free will.
Using their own free will, those people wanted nothing to do with Jesus. Their only interest was in worldly things and because of that, they told Jesus to hit the road and go some place else and kill pigs. Jesus knew exactly what was in their hearts, and that their minds were closed to anything that Jesus had to say. So what did Jesus do? Jesus simply turned around, boarded the boat and proceeded across the water and went into his own city. Without a word, he simply turned and left, and very possibly took with him their eternal salvation.
John 15:1-2 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He removes every branch in me that bears no fruit. Every branch that bears fruit he prunes to make it bear more fruit".
John 15:6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned".
1 Corinthians 10:12 "Therefore let him who thinks he is standing, beware, that he does not fall".
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Yael Levi-Bénédict on
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Lt,
Thanks for your input.
I am, however, not convinced by the argument that 'man is growing and learning'. To me it seems a bit chaotic that anyone is allowed to disagree in so many respects, as long as they agree in some other key issues...
But then my question is: Who establishes which the KEY ISSUES or Doctrines are?
If the Bible is the Sole Authority, it is open for interpretation. Any one interpreting it can say " The Holy Spirit " revealed to me that such an issue is fundamental, whereas such & such are not!
He/She can pretty much make their own religion and there is nothing to prevent them. As long as there are people out there to follow them!
I was shocked to learn that each year there are 500 new denominations. The overall number is like thousands!
In the mean time, my initial question is still a simple one: How can I know who is right? -
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Yael,
Do you believe that any one man or denominaton has the Bible completely figured out? Do you believe that there is any one out there that believes and interprets the Word of God exactly like you or I do? I am talking the the whole Word of God exactly like you or me?
There are issues that people will disagree on. Some issues are of more importance than others.
Who is right? God is right. Man's goal is to seek to come into alignment with God. The man that thinks he has it all figured out and is not still learning and growing is a fool. Any one who trusts in a organization rather than in God is a fool. There is so much more we have to learn from God's Word. We are works in progress (Philippians 1:6)
Lord Bless,
LT -
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LT,
That is a very convenient answer, which I admittedly reject. But I respect your opinion, even though I think you are wrong.
As a non practicin Jew looking into Christianity with the sincere purpose of conversion I think that it is sad that Christians ( who claim to have the True Faith) cannot actually agree on what they believe, because they have NO authority to resolve conflicting arguments.
...its quite frustrating... -
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Yael,
The fact that you think I am wrong proves my point in the first place. It is not a convenient answer, but the reality of life.
We. believers in Jesus who are born-again, claim to have the true faith, in that Jesus is the way the truth and the life (Jn. 14:6). Our faith and hope is in Jesus, not man. There will always be areas of disagreement in this life regarding God's Word, because man is flawed.
The frustrating part is only frustrating because you seek to find the answer in man, meaning that unless man is in full agreement with each other the whole must be false according to your premise. Your premise is in error because it relies on man instead of God. We see imperfect man being drawn to the God who is perfect. This perfect God is perfecting us, but we are still in these earthen vessels and we begin our journey of the new life as babes and must grow in maturity and strength.
The conflicting argument you assert is resolved by us recognizing that we are works in progress and we are growing in knowledge and grace as God works in us and through us.
You are asking for perfection from imperfect people. There is a difference between being perfect and being perfected.
PHP 3:1 Finally, my brothers, rejoice in the Lord! It is no trouble for me to write the same things to you again, and it is a safeguard for you.
PHP 3:2 Watch out for those dogs, those men who do evil, those mutilators of the flesh. 3 For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh-- 4 though I myself have reasons for such confidence.
If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless.
PHP 3:7 But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. 10 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.
PHP 3:12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
PHP 3:15 All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. 16 Only let us live up to what we have already attained.
Lord Bless,
LT
TheNET Coordinator -
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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Praise the Lord! I am receiving blessing after blessing tonight on this site. These verses in Philippians LT is mentioning are inspiring me. I think of Paul who had gained so much in this life especially in the area of attaining what some would consider human righteousness. As far as human perfection, he would be about as good as one could get. However, he considered every single bit of his achievements as rubbish. He considered his righteousness rubbish that he might gain Jesus Christ. Then he presses on to take hold of His righteousness that Christ might take hold of him.
He did not consider himself as having reached perfection but he knew he certainly had the righteousness of Christ. As I was reading this I was being blessed and blessed. I pray that all would come to know Jesus and the power of His suffering that we might enjoy the benefits of His propitiation. Praise His Name. -
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Linda
Thanks!!
But if one cannot do private interpretation, what are all these denominations doing?
Some one must have come up with all these different ideas for the first time at one point... And they must have done it privately and then taught it to others.
AND who is to say whose intrepretations are right or wrong! It seems that anyone can be their own authority¬! -
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Yael,
I think if we keep talking and let Scripture interpret Scripture, we will all come closer in our understanding. I may have a point from one Scripture but someone else might know a verse that helps me understand that point a little better. None of us can make this on our own. Christ made us need one another. It would have been nice to not need each other but that is usually not the case. -
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Thanks Roy,
I agree. Scripture must have one consistent interpretation, other wise is like anarchy! -
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Yael,
The Spirit leds us into all truth:
Joh 16:13 But when that One comes, the Spirit of Truth, He will guide you into all Truth, for He will not speak from Himself, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will announce the coming things to you.
If you repent and believe Yael you will receive the Spirit and He will led you into all truth (I am not saying that you have or have not as I am not sure but that this is what happens).
The Spirit is from God and we are to trust in God not man!
May God enlighten you with His truth through His Spirit.
AMEN!
Blessings
Linda Ruth -
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Yael,
I see that the family has been giving you excellent answers and you will probably turn around and say that my response to you is a way of avoiding the issues you have brought up, which have very easy answers and I have no problem dealing with them, they are very elementary. But there is something else I would like to mention, which is of most importance.
The thing though friend is that you have this thing backwards. I am blessed and static that you are here among us with what appears a genuine desire to at least understand our faith and why we practice our faith as we do. However you can't understand Christianity intellectual only.
Check these verses out:
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. But we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.1 Corinthians 1:18-24
1 Corinthians 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Romans 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.
Yael you cannot understand the things of God until you become Spiritual. Not on an intellectual pursuit of truth which is admirable and fine, but through the born again experience.
John 3 NIV
1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him.” 3 In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”
And what must you do for your Spiritual eyes to be open; well I am glad you asked:
Repent of your sins before a holy and merciful God and be baptized, in the name of Jesus Christ. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children. Repent and believe that Jesus Christ is Lord and savior. Repent of your sins.
Brother Scribe wrote the following on one of our discussions:
The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. That's what the Bible says, right? Well, either that's demonstrably true, or it is not. There are some who have done detailed research and provided explanation of the myriad cases of lives transformed.
In my case, I can tell you that God did save me. - And - God is saving me. If I were to give you the facts of how many times and in how many ways that God has delivered me from death, destruction or despair - you would probably not believe me. The truth is that God does transform; in fact, I am of the opinion that nothing else - no one else -can truly transform a sinner.
Yet, these things are insignificant compared to what God has told us he has delivered us from, through the eternal covenant, by the blood of Christ.
Yes, salvation occurs "on this earth" but the fact is that the real salvation is in a realm that is not "on this earth". We cannot fully grasp this fact, because none of us has ever "seen" how perilous our situation is before the judgment of God.EOQ
I can't improve in what my brother wrote, but I can tell you that Christ changes people and He wants to change you. Christianity is not something you grasp intellectually only, truly our intellect comes alive when we are in Christ, but Christianity is something to be experience and that experience is available to all who Repent and believe that Jesus is Lord.
I pray God gives you eyes to see and ears to hear.
Blessings -
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Dear Mitchell,
The unfortunate truth is that some have believed the hideous lie that “once saved, always saved" and hence they think they have a "license to sin" after being born again.
As always the best lies are well mixed with truth. Once a person is regenerated/borne again, it is true that they now belong to God and will be kept by God unto salvation, but by no means does that truth give anyone a license to sin. They have been bought with the precious blood of the Lamb and no longer belong to themselves. And Jesus will make sure they are kept because He is able to keep everyone God gives Him.
Hebrews 12:2
looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
1 Peter 1:18-19 (New King James Version)
18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.
Jude 1:24
Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
John 6
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
BUT BY NO MEANS DO THEY HAVE A LICENSE TO SIN. If a true Christian falls for this lie, they will quickly find out that God corrects His people. They will learn that they were mistaken. God will not correct those who made a public confession or know Christian lingo and even work around the church, but did not truly repent. Only God knows how many millions have gone up to accept Christ so the wife can get out their back or because a person in Church almost dragged them to do it or etc...
“ My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”[a]
7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.
Romans 6
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Those among us that can live a life of sin without conviction from the Holy Spirit and claim to be Chritian lie.
1 John 1
6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
A child of God can fall (for how long? Only God knows) and can even fall into habitual sin, but rest asure that God will correct Him and He will lose benefits of obediance, such as the joy etc..God will make sure HIs own are kept by Jesus though. A true child of God will be dealt wtth as a son/daugther.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
This was a great discussion about the topic: http://www.allaboutgod.net/forum/topics/can-we-lose-our-salvation -
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