Losing Salvation?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on March 3, 2010 at 7:44pm

1 Corinthians 15:2
By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

By this qualifying statement, Paul recognized and called to their attention that some may have had a shallow, non-saving faith.

Matthew 13:3-7 3Then he told them many things in parables, saying: "A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants.

Matthew 7:21-24
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Some believed only as the demons believe, James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

They believe the word to be truth but have no love for God. True believers hold fast to the gospel: John 8:31-59 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?

So what I am doing is keeping in mind that God teaches that he will keep me, so when I encounter verses that apparently say different, the only thing I do is bring to my mind other verses that make those verses clear, while others choose to insert a meaning to those verses that would create a contradiction. My hermeneutics do not excluded the plain meaning of scriptures concerning the responsibility of man. I completely understand that the Sanctification process calls for me to choose to abide in Scripture so I can know the truth that will keep me free. I also understand that there are times when a believer will get to heaven only because of God keeping him, because of his unproductive life of defeat. Our responsibility to abide in Christ and grow in grace is not taken lightly at all. It is fully understood by me, yet I understand that God has not sacrificed His sovereignty for my free will.

This is what we always talk about. Interpreting scripture with scripture and getting rid of the apperent contradictions with the word.

Permalink Reply by Carla on March 3, 2010 at 10:16pm

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on March 4, 2010 at 3:22am

Carla,

Excellent. Thanks for sharing this.

Lord Bless,
LT

Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on March 4, 2010 at 4:44am

39 “ ‘See now that I, even I, am he,
and there is no god beside me;
iI kill and I make alive;
I wound and I heal;
and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.
The Holy Bible : English Standard Version. Wheaton : Standard Bible Society, 2001, S. Dt 32:39

28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, rwho has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of tthe Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
The Holy Bible : English Standard Version. Wheaton : Standard Bible Society, 2001, S. Jn 10:27-30

I think this includes the person himself.

Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on March 4, 2010 at 4:56am

We all try to think that our strengths are equal to God's, or better still, He is equal to us. We try to humanize him. God is God. There is NONE like Him. He has strength that none of us can even imagine. One of them is holding on to what is HIS. If He gives the promise "I will never leave you or forsake you" what part of that is being misunderstood? the word "except if" doesn't appear anywhere in that statement. Therefore, I have to say that even if we slip, God isn't going to.

Jesus told the parable of the one sheep in 100 who went astray and explained that the Good Shepard left the 99 and went and found the one that is missing. We are those sheep.

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on March 4, 2010 at 5:17am

Rita,

Good points.

Lord Bless,
LT

Permalink Reply by Carla on March 4, 2010 at 7:20am

These are very good points Rita. Thanks for posting.
Blessings, Carla

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on March 4, 2010 at 4:40pm

Hey Michelle,

These verses are not as clear cut as you might think regarding your position. I have added a few more that are used to defend the concept that one can lose their salvation.

Ex 32:33
This verse relates to God dealing with the nation of Israel and is based on the Old Covenant. None of them have been regenerated, sealed and indwelt by the Holy Spirit. They are not new creations in Christ. Caution must always be given when reading the Old Testament and trying to directly apply it to the church. There are many principles that apply, but very few laws. Most were given conditionally to Israel.

Rom 11:22
The term “also will be cut off” carries an understanding that in a like manner you will be cut off. What does that mean? One has to look at the context of Romans 11 to get the full picture. What does Romans 11:1-6 say? Israel took a wrong path and has been disciplined. True believers that stray from the path will be disciplined. Israel is still God’s chosen people and the church the bride of Christ.

John 15:1-2 What does John 15:3-4 say? There are those who have been proclaimed clean. Who are they? They are the born-again believers. How do born-again believers bear fruit? Is it dependent upon man or God? Verse 4 is clear that fruit bearing is God’s work in us as we live for Him. If we go on to verses 6-7 we see that a person who wanders is “like” a branch. It does not say that it is thrown into the fire, but simply implies uselessness when we live in rebellion.

1 Cor 9:24-27
What is the prize? A prize is a reward. This cannot mean salvation or salvation would not be a free gift.

1 Cor 10:1-12
Sounds like discipline to me.

2 Peter 2:20-21
These people know the right path, chose to walk in obedience to the law, but never are converted. They are referred to as “Dogs” (v.22). God simply does not refer to His children as dogs. In verse 20 in the Greek the verse means to “escape the defilement of this world.”

Earlier in 2 Peter we read the following words of assurance:
“His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” 2 Peter 1:3-11 NIV


2 Peter 3:17-18
“Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.” KJV 2 Pe 3:17

In the Greek it relates to continuing in the path, the way of life.

It relates to being led away from the path that is pleasing to God. It does not mean salvation lost. Can a church fall into error and lose its witness and therefore lose its effectiveness for the kingdom?


Heb 10:26-31
Rhetorical. Thus if one were to fall away they never could be redeemed. These two verses have to be read in light of Heb. 10:1-25. It is helpful to read them in light of the whole Book of Hebrews as well which includes the eternal sacrifice of Christ and Him serving as the true High Priest.

Does this speak to the saved or a person who has heard the knowledge of truth (the gospel) and has rejected it after attempting to walk the walk and talk the talk for a period of time? There is only one sacrifice for us and that is the sacrifice of Jesus. What other sacrifice would there be? This book is written to the Jew and the context of chapter 10 deals with the difference between the old system and the new system. After Jesus death the old sacrificial system is now for naught. The previous method of forgiveness and sanctification have been replaced. The person who heard the gospel and rejects it has trampled on the Son of God and are left only with a fearful expectation of judgment.

Rev 3:14-16
What does “spit you out of my mouth mean”? In context it means that these people have made Jesus nauseous. Can one say with certainty that it means destruction? In verse 19 Jesus states “those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. He did not say disown.

1 Timothy 4:1
“The faith” here relates to a path and it can apply to anyone walking in the path. The person may or may not be converted. 1 Tim. 4:6 relates to the lifestyle/path of faith. They may have embraced God intellectually and have fallen away or they may have been simply led astray. We see these as apostates. You would see it as falling away from the salvation. I see it as falling away from the path a Christian should be walking on to please Father God.

Paul uses the term faith as a way of life or right path throughout 1 Timothy. The following are examples: 1 Timothy 2:7, 3:9, 4:6, 5:8, and 6:10-12.

Colossians 2:8
This verse is not related to salvation. It relates to the path you are on. I see it as one going astray potentially for a season. No one has full knowledge of all the things of God. Look at some of the false teachers that have arose in our era. People who love Jesus have flocked to them and will follow them for a season. Some come out after a period others come out after the false ministry collapses. There are some of these ministries operating today and many saved people are being led astray by their teaching believing that God is in it to this day. Their mind has been fooled, but they still love Jesus.

For the assurance in and through Christ we must read the rest of chapter 2 and into chapter 3.

Colossians 2:18
The prize is not identified as salvation. The person who is attempting to lead others astray is not connected to the head or the body. Thus, he is referring to a false teacher in 18b-19.

In the Greek the word translated here (only time found in Scripture) as “disqualify for the prize” means to lead astray, to beguile.

Paul goes on in Col. 2:20-23 to explain that it is foolish to depart from the path and return to the ways of the world.

Then he reminds his readers where their minds and attention should be focused.
“If then you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.” Col. 3:1-4

The opening “if” is not “If you stay the course.” It relates to “if” you are saved then we should do these things because we have already died in Christ and our life is hidden with Christ. I see conversion in the present and the complete fulfillment as future.

1 Timothy 1:18-20
One must include verses 16 and 17 to understand the meaning of 18-20. Then we can step further back and see the deeper meaning of the whole letter as well.

“Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.” 1 Tim. 1:16-17 NIV

“Paul names two examples of those who have shipwrecked their faith: Hymenaeus and Alexander. The former is mentioned again as a heretical teacher in 2Ti 2:17; the latter is probably "Alexander the metalworker," who did Paul a great deal of harm (2Ti 4:14). The apostle had handed these two ringleaders "over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme" (cf. 1Co 5:5, where this phrase indicates excommunication from the church). The purpose was to jolt the offenders to repentance, induced by the fearful thought of being turned over to Satan's control. Its purpose, therefore, is remedial, not punitive.” NIVBC

Revelation 3:11-12
Which crown is in question? To “him who overcomes” is a promise similar to saying “those who overcome.” How do we overcome? 1 John 5:4-5.

Heb. 3:12
Standing alone or even as a short portion of Scripture this would be the hardest to address. The author is speaking to Hebrew believers carrying their historical baggage. The author is laying the ground work leading up to the greater understanding found in later chapters relating to the new covenant and as we find Jesus as our High Priest and eternal sacrifice. This verse has to be read in light of the main teaching (theme) of the Book of Hebrews with the intended reader, the Hebrew believers, in mind.

Food for thought.

Lord Bless,
LT

Permalink Reply by Carla on March 4, 2010 at 12:44pm

Dear Michelle,

I Praise God for your passion for Christ, and to study God's Word. That desire comes from God, and from His Holy Spirit...it is truly a beautiful thing.

In looking at the scriptures that you posted above, the context seems to be misunderstood.

John 15, Jesus is admonishing us to stay close to Him ...'abide in Him', that we may produce much fruit. I guess the confusion can come when a person questions their Salvation if they are not producing fruit (I am not talking about you---just as a general statement). Jesus has told us 'you will know them by their fruit'...Matt 7:16..even that is not referring to a person loosing their Salvation, but rather, it is a warning to us about false prophets.

Phl 1:6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

A person may not produce much fruit...but it does not mean they will loose their Salvation, they will miss out on rewards (now and in heaven)...but they will not loose their Salvation.
1Cr 3:11 For no one can lay any other foundation than the one we already have--Jesus Christ.
1Cr 3:12 Now anyone who builds on that foundation may use gold, silver, jewels, wood, hay, or straw.
1Cr 3:13 But there is going to come a time of testing at the judgment day to see what kind of work each builder has done. Everyone's work will be put through the fire to see whether or not it keeps its value.
1Cr 3:14 If the work survives the fire, that builder will receive a reward.
1Cr 3:15 But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builders themselves will be saved, but like someone escaping through a wall of flames.
This will be at the Judgement for believers.

Revelation 22:12 (NIV)
12 “Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.

2Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished the race, and I have remained faithful.
2Ti 4:8 And now the prize awaits me--the crown of righteousness that the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give me on that great day of his return. And the prize is not just for me but for all who eagerly look forward to his glorious return.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God;

If we say it is of ourselves, then we are relying on our own strength and not God's Strength to hold us and keep us. God is far more faithful and Powerful then we could ever even hope to be.. That is why I trust in Jesus for my salvation..not myself! If we rely on our own strength or Power to hold our Salvation secure, then why did Jesus have to die?

As believers, we are marked by the Holy Spirit.
Eph 1:13 In Him, [fn] you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, [fn] you were sealed in Him [fn] with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 who is given [fn] as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Would God take this away from us after He has given to to us? Romans 8:28-39

Hebrews 7:25 (NIV)
25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

2 Corinthians 5:17 (NIV)
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

So what about Hebrews 6:4-6
Hbr 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Hbr 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Hbr 6:6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since [fn] they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Here is an answer from John McArthur:
In that passage, the writer of Hebrews is speaking to the unsaved who have heard the truth and acknowledged it, but who have hesitated to embrace Christ. The Holy Spirit warns them, “You had better come to Christ now, for if you fall away it will be impossible for you to come again to the point of repentance.” They were at the best point for repentance–full knowledge. To fall back from that would be fatal.

Because they believe the warning is addressed to Christians, many interpreters hold that the passage teaches that salvation can be lost. If this interpretation were true, however, the passage would also teach that, once lost, salvation could never be regained. There would be no going back and forth, in and out of grace. But Christians are not being addressed, and it is the opportunity for receiving salvation, not salvation itself, that can be lost.

The believer need never fear he will lose his salvation. He cannot. The Bible is absolutely clear about that. Jesus said, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand” (John 10:27-29; see also Rom. 8:35-39; Phil. 1:6; and 1 Pet. 1:4-5).

If you are in Christ, rejoice. Your salvation is secure forever.

***********************

If a person leaves the faith..they were not ever of us.....maybe those who have seemingly left still have a chance then....but they must be born again of the Spirit.
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not {really} of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but {they went out,} so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.



My Salvation is secure...I know this to be true in my personal life. There are times when I neglect to study scripture, or when I try to do things in my own strength. God does not ever let this go on for long.. He always brings me back to His loving embrace, His POWER, Grace, Patience and Mercy towards me and with me astounds me and keeps me from ever really wandering off too far. His still quiet voice reassures me that HE will never leave me nor forsake me...HE knows how weak I am, and I know my need for Him. He has caused me to have a reverent fear for Him, and His Holy Spirit testifies with my spirit, that I belong to Him. Jesus is my Savior, and He will never let me go! I don't understand how He holds me and keeps me as He does, but I know it to be true, because He has told me it is, and HE has shown me relationally also. IT's God's Power that keeps me to Him..not my own. Jesus is Savior..i am not!

Hebrews 12:2 (NIV)
2 Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Our God is an Awesome God!
Blessings, Carla

Permalink Reply by Carla on March 4, 2010 at 1:04pm

This Verse:

1 Cor 9:24-27
4 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. 25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. 26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified. Paul is not referring to him loosing his own salvation..but rather, loosing the privledge of spreading the gospel.. We must all remain in integrity and practice what we preach. If we say one thing..and then live another way opposite to what we preach, we will loose our credibility to our listening audience...we would not be God honoring, and we would not be in God's Will living for the purposes of God's Kingdom. ---Simply put--We must practice what we preach!

Blessings, Carla

Permalink Reply by Stacey Osana Arquines on March 17, 2010 at 2:54pm

Yes you may lose salvation if you do not improve in faith to become one in body, mind, and soul with the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior for only through Him can we get to the Father. We must follow his footsteps to reach what we aim for and that is life in Heaven. Hence those who are baptized with the Holy Spirit are added to have life (read my discussion on being baptized with the Holy Spirit its in one of my blogs) What does adding entail?

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on March 18, 2010 at 12:09am

You tripping shorty haahahaha J/K I am so proud to be your big brother, you are doing great. Love you.

Carla placed this on the third page and i am putting it here 4 u.check it out!

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