Judging salvation

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Amanda on January 12, 2015 at 10:22am

Very true.

People who say they know someone is in heaven, are actually judging that person's eternal destiny, not just the person's current heart condition. Although I'm not stating we can judge the eternal destiny, I've noticed that few seem to have a problem with proclaiming that they know someone is in heaven, when, actually, I believe it is better to say that there is hope someone is in heaven based on having professed faith and even greater hope if we knew the person for a long time and witnessed the life that they lived for the Lord where their love for Him was evidenced.

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Permalink Reply by RoyW on January 12, 2015 at 11:31am

Or, maybe we could say, "According to their profession of faith, they are in heaven today."

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Permalink Reply by Amanda on January 12, 2015 at 1:14pm

I guess I wouldn't feel good, anymore, about stating it that way, although I've comforted people in the past regarding their dead loved ones being in heaven and seeing them again someday in heaven. Last night the group was talking about this very thing, judging eternal destiny, and the leader, an elderly gentleman, stated that he can't tell anyone who says they believe that he knows where they will go when they die, but, he said he can tell those who both believe and obey where they will be. I was sitting in the front row, just a few feet away from where he was perched on a stool in front of the congregation, and I smiled real widely when he said that, and he saw me, and then he said, but many who obey don't really believe and are just going through the motions. One of the things about visiting a different congegation, I think, is finding out what actually is motivating people there and how the church was planted and so forth. I may be jumping to a conclusion, but it seems to me that many fairly new and independent groups are seeking to imitate the early church and the early christians as described in the NT epistles as much as possible. It seems to be everywhere outside of those churches that have denominational ties. Not that it's a bad thing, but I can't help but wonder why the focus is on imitating the early christians instead of on imitating Christ, which is what all of them were seeking and learning to do, anyway. The focus should be on the relationship with Christ, first and foremost, IMO, and not on how others lived out or are living out their relationships with the Lord.

Permalink Reply by Carla on January 12, 2015 at 1:20pm

That's a very wise point Amanda.  Good word.

Permalink Reply by Amanda on January 12, 2015 at 5:00pm

This was one of my readings for today, a devotional by Charles Spurgeon, and it addresses me in a very personal way.

I have yet to speak on God's behalf. Job 36:2
We ought not to court publicity for our virtue, or notoriety for our zeal; but, at the same time, it is a sin to be always seeking to hide that which God has bestowed upon us for the good of others. A Christian is not to be a village in a valley, but a city set upon a hill; he is not to be a candle under a bushel, but a candle in a candlestick, giving light to all. Retirement may be lovely in its season, and to hide one's self is doubtless modest, but the hiding of Christ in us can never be justified, and the keeping back of truth which is precious to ourselves is a sin against others and an offence against God. If you are of a nervous temperament and of retiring disposition, take care that you do not too much indulge this trembling propensity, lest you should be useless to the church. Seek in the name of him who was not ashamed of you to do some little violence to your feelings, and tell to others what Christ has told to you. If thou canst not speak with trumpet tongue, use the still small voice. If the pulpit must not be thy tribune, if the press may not carry on its wings thy words, yet say with Peter and John, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee. By Sychar's well talk to the Samaritan woman, if thou canst not on the mountain preach a sermon; utter the praises of Jesus in the house, if not in the temple; in the field, if not upon the exchange; in the midst of thine own household, if thou canst not in the midst of the great family of man. From the hidden springs within let sweetly flowing rivulets of testimony flow forth, giving drink to every passer-by. Hide not thy talent; trade with it; and thou shalt bring in good interest to thy Lord and Master. To speak for God will be refreshing to ourselves, cheering to saints, useful to sinners, and honouring to the Saviour. Dumb children are an affliction to their parents. Lord, unloose all thy children's tongue.

Sent from the Morning and Evening Devotional, by Charles Spurgeon.

Permalink Reply by Seek on January 6, 2015 at 6:00am

Roy, I'd be lying if I said I never feel any anger at people who do these things and for one person I've even expressed to God that I wouldn't want them in hell but for reasons that have nothing to do with loving them and I just pray I learn to love them despite their actions. But another part of me also gets angry that they USE religion. It's mocking God and just pure evil. And another part would love never having to deal with them again but also partly wanting to for reasons again not out of love for them.

That explanation probably has you scratching your head. LOL

But even people we love but they make life the most difficult, we don't purposely go hang with them to see see how much of their difficulties we can handle. Yet sometimes we MUST deal with such people. IE: Someone in a marriage where the spouse is demanding and continually demeans you. They aren't physically abusive but verbally and you try loving them but it takes a large amount of grace to do so. Especially if you try to speak to this person in a Godly way and if they are a church deacon and you rebuke them for their behavior, and they take the attitude that there's nothing wrong with their behavior and it's all you because you don't live up to their expectations. Even loving them at times you're gonna question and wonder how much more you can give. You will get angry at times. And of course they'll point it out to you...how God says not to get angry. But if you point out their anger, they'll justify it in some manner.

Just trying to find answers on dealing with such a person without getting angry.

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Permalink Reply by RoyW on January 6, 2015 at 6:23am

Seek,

I can tell that someone is causing you great frustration. If it is a church deacon, well good luck. :) I have been dealing with deacons all my life. They can be very frustrating. But, I am very frustrating to them as well. I deal with a school board which can also be frustrating. However, few are more frustrating than I am . 

What would be worse is if no one cared at all about us. You aren't but I am usually the frustrating one. At least people are still interacting with me. lol Sometimes we want to quit and walk away. That is usually not the answer either. I sometimes find that God is working on me while He is at work on them. 

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Permalink Reply by Tammy on January 6, 2015 at 9:25am

I can give you a good example: Judas & Peter. Sounds like yours is Judas

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Permalink Reply by Seek on January 6, 2015 at 10:29am

Good thing Peter didn't know what Judas really was while he still had to eat and commune with him. I wonder how hot headed Peter would've dealt with it if he had.

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Permalink Reply by Tammy on January 6, 2015 at 3:42pm

Well, considering I've always identified with Peter - before the Crucifixion mind you - I believe he would have ripped him a new one & had a great choice of words as well.

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Permalink Reply by Carla on January 8, 2015 at 2:11pm

Hey Seek,

I feel like I understand the type of person you are talking about.  A friend of mine's husband is kind of like this.  He's verbally and emotionally abusive, drinks too much, is selfish in many ways but still calls himself a Christian.  He seems to use Christianity to his own convenience when he wants to look good or hold up an appearance of righteousness and holiness.  He's incredibly prideful and difficult to be around and he has a terrible reputation.  His nickname is 'blackie' because he has these hateful evil outbursts towards people, but then he does a sort of penance by hanging out with priests, giving money to the church and attending church.  Frustrating right?  oh yes. 

The thing is, he's my friends husband so sometimes I have to be around him.  What do I do?  I smile, show him respect.  I haven't had the opportunity to have a 'religious' conversation with him too much, but when I do I keep it pretty cordial.  He knows all the right answers, but is a hypocrite.  There is no evidence of a changed life or good fruit.  There are good deeds, but I know many atheists who do 'good deeds'.  The motive of the heart is what matters, and we can't know what the motives are.  I don't know if he's trying to earn his way to approval, or if he's accepted God's gift of grace and his good deeds are flowing from a heart of gratitude. 

All this to say, I don't believe we can judge someone else's salvation.  We're just too prone to error and we don't know the whole story of someone else's life.

Thoughts?

Blessings, Carla

ps-The good news is his life isn't over yet.  If he doesn't know the Lord, then there is still time.  I have never felt the prompting from the Holy Spirit to witness to him, but if I do I hope I would be obedient. 

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Permalink Reply by Seek on January 8, 2015 at 7:55pm

Matthew 7:15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

One commentary I ran across on this says that this is speaking of one judged by his life. The kind of person he really is cannot help being revealed. Some conceal their true nature with remarkable skill, and only careful observation will expose them. But there is assurance: you will know them.

I think we get hung up on judge not, but if we read it all:

Matthew 7:1-29
“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye?

I think we often overlook the distinction made throughout scripture.

Yet this too is covered:

1 Corinthians 5:11-13
But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”

This passage actually says to judge a brother who is committing such blatant sins.

I think a further distinction is being made here...that we can't go around judging those who claim salvation for every little sin, but if they are engaged in continual blatant sins and won't even listen to advice, that we not only judge but go a step further.

Matthew 18:15 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

I think so many come up against this "judge not" barrier. But if we're too afraid to judge, aren't we then gullible and unable to follow Matthew 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

People will also point out how Jesus ate with sinners. Yet He often rebuked the Pharisees (hypocrites). And I think we find another distinction. God looks on the heart. We all sin and fall short but sin and hypocrisy are world's apart.

The Oxford dictionary defines a hypocrite as "One who falsely professes to be virtuously or religiously inclined; one who pretends to have feelings or beliefs of a higher order than his real ones; hence generally, a dissembler, pretender."

The way I see this is that a sinner is one who hasn't chosen Christ but a hypocrite is one who pretends religion...one who actually mocks God.

So...the more I've thought on this issue, the more convinced I am of my assessment. We can all display a bit of bad fruit at times but we don't justify it and claim we have no sin. The one who does then professes Christ is exactly the type of false prophet I think Jesus warned of.

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