Judas Iscariot, the condemmed??

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Sharon Theresa Theil on October 30, 2010 at 12:58pm

Roy,

Your response to Brother Louis seems to contradict the overall theme of Sacred Scripture ie., that the choices we make count.

More over, your message seems to contradict itself.


You stated: The only possible way to create an individual with the ability to think for oneself would be to create a man that could fall.


So, here we see Adam, made in the Image and Likeness of God, a moral agent with the God-given ability to think and to choose and to incur consequences for what he chooses.

But, that seems to negate your next sentence....


The fall was inevitable.

A few questions,

1). How was the Fall inevitable?
2). Was Adam capable of choosing to not eat the fruit offered to him by the woman, Eve?
3). What scriptures back up your answers?


I really think this is a major matter that needs a thoughtful meditation upon Sacred Scripture.

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on October 31, 2010 at 3:13am

Hey sis Sharon,

Is good to see you back on the boards. My theology is almost identical to Roy's and I know he will answer you when he sees your response, but I hope is ok with you if I stick my nose in here. :)

>>the choices we make count

Before we are quicken by the Spirit, regenerated, we were spiritually dead, our heart was wicked and deceitful and if we do not constantly abide in the word it can still deceive us. We have the ability to choose according to our desires before we are made alive by the Spirit, but we only desire self and life (the system of the world), before we are new creations. We have the capacity to do good and honorable things, but without eternal value, nothing spiritual. We can do good works. But of no Spiritual significance. Even as Christians we can do things with the wrong motive and not get a reward for it.

Our choices do count amen, but are we talking about our choices as new creations or our choice when we were dead in our trespasses and sins?

>>So, here we see Adam, made in the Image and Likeness of God, a moral agent with the God-given ability to think and to choose and to incur consequences for what he chooses. But, that seems to negate your next sentence.... The fall was inevitable.

A study on the providence of God and the decreed of God would have to be done to fully understand what Roy is conveying with his statement "the fall was inevitable." But this is what that statement means: God created Adam and Eve and for that matter Lucifer knowing full well that they were going to fall. There was no possibility for that not to happen, yes they could have obeyed, but God knew before the earth and angels were created that Lucifer and Adam and Eve would fall, so in His good pleasure and for His perfect purposes He decided to make them knowing what they were going to do, so they could do what He already knew they would do. The fall was inevitable. God decreed it to happen.

How God governs all events in the universe without sinning, and without removing responsibility from man, and with compassionate outcomes is mysterious indeed! But that is what the Bible teaches. God "works all things after the counsel of his will" (Ephesians 1:11). This "all things" includes the fall of sparrows (Matthew 10:29), the rolling of dice (Proverbs 16:33), the slaughter of his people (Psalm 44:11), the decisions of kings (Proverbs 21:1), the failing of sight (Exodus 4:11), the sickness of children (2 Samuel 12:15), the loss and gain of money (1 Samuel 2:7), the suffering of saints (1 Peter 4:19), the completion of travel plans (James 4:15), the persecution of Christians (Hebrews 12:4-7), the repentance of souls (2 Timothy 2:25), the gift of faith (Philippians 1:29), the pursuit of holiness (Philippians 3:12-13), the growth of believers (Hebrews 6:3), the giving of life and the taking in death (1 Samuel 2:6), and the crucifixion of his Son (Acts 4:27-28).

From the smallest thing to the greatest thing, good and evil, happy and sad, pagan and Christian, pain and pleasure - God governs them all for his wise and just and good purposes (Isaiah 46:10). Lest we miss the point, the Bible speaks most clearly to this in the most painful situations. Amos asks, in time of disaster, "If a calamity occurs in a city has not the LORD done it?" (Amos 3:6). After losing all ten of his children in the collapse of his son's house, Job says, "The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away. Blessed be the name of the LORD" (Job 1:21). After being covered with boils he says, "Shall we indeed accept good from God and not accept adversity?" (Job 2:10). Pastor John Piper

The origin of evil is one I cannot answer. I have read much about it but I cannot answer it. I know evil would not exist if God did not want it to exist. The only reason why evil exist is because is within God's plan for now. Out of the thousands of ways He could have created us and the universe, He chose the current one. Knowing very well what would happened. In no way does this make out evil in anyway. His purposes are beyond us. He is Holy, Holy, Holy, perfectly good and beautiful is our Lord.

God's priority is not the salvation of every human being, that is not His priority in my biblical opinion, if it was He would save everybody for He has the power and authority to do so. His priority is His glory and His glory is demonstrated by saving some and passing righteous judgment upon others.

22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea: Romans 9

Permalink Reply by RoyW on October 31, 2010 at 7:48am

Sharon,

The main difference between David and me is that he needs no sleep. haha

Permalink Reply by RoyW on October 31, 2010 at 3:14am

Sharon,

I should have said that some of this is my opinion. However, let me answer your questions:

The fall was inevitable:

Eph 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love

Eph 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, NIV

If God made His choice before the creation of the world, the fall was inevitable. There is no way it was not going to happen. Everything is according to His pleasure and will. You could say the outcome of the Garden experience with Adam and Eve was predetermined. The 2nd question becomes a mute question. I see no purpose in its discussion.

Some of my post was logic and therefore would be my opinion. However, that God predetermined events before He ever created the world has been well established.

Roy

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on October 31, 2010 at 2:10am

Roy,

>>The only possible way to create an individual with the ability to think for oneself would be to create a man that could fall. The fall was inevitable.

Hey brosky I think God can create an individual with the ability to think for oneself without creating him in an un-glorified state. In other words as I have stated it many times in different posts. God could have created us as we will be, able to think for our selves, with the ability to choose, but no inclinations for evil, in a glorified state, unable to sin. We will not be robots, just like we are not robots now. We are free to choose according to our heart's desires.

What say you my brother?

Permalink Reply by RoyW on October 31, 2010 at 3:46am

David,

Not only could He but He did. I do not believe there will be anyway for any of us to fall ever again throughout all eternity. We could argue that one from here to eternity but that is what I believe. If God has predetermined someone, how is it possible that he could ever be lost? However, the fleshly garment that was given us to wear causes sin. The desire Adam had for Eve was so powerful sin was the result. How was it even remotely possible that he would follow her over God? That is the way God made him. It was His plan. That is an area we have never gotten into. It is there, nevertheless.

In our glorified bodies, that desire will be gone. All those powers of the flesh will not be a part of our new state. We yearn for that day since the desires of the flesh sometime even now overcome us. We hate that with every fiber of our being. This is our temporary state. It is still part of His plan. The only way we can be victorious and defeat the ultimate outcome of the fleshly desires is through faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. This is the victory that overcomes the world. He made us this way and has given us the victory.

Could a life be lived in this flesh that would overcome every desire? Yes, but there was only One who could do it. Satan had seen every man fall. I wonder if he even thought whether or not it was possible. Jesus is truly the Conqueror. I believe everything that was said about Him in the Word. It is the only way for God's plan to work. The plan is divine. We might as well just accept His plan - resign ourselves to it.

If you believe in Revelation, you must believe that everything is predetermined. Nothing can happen that will hinder what is prophesied from happening. This is the main objection that is surfacing in our day against the doctrines of Christ. Is there any way what He has said to John or anyone else will not come to pass? I say, No, a thousand times no.

When it comes down to it, what difference does it make whether I choose or He chooses for me. Not only do I believe I was predetermined, I believe every one of my children were predetermined and their children after them. I could go on and on about this and make every one tell me to shut up. Was there a chance that my father would not choose my mother? If I was truly foreknown by Him, how much was left to chance. Everything had to happen just the way it happened for me to get here. Was there a chance that those bombs that were dropped by the Japanese in the Philippines be moved just slightly and hit my dad? No, because I am here and I am predetermined. He loved me before He ever created this world.

Is He speaking about me even generally? Absolutely not! He called me by name. Are we still on the thread about Judas? Judas was predetermined. The focus, however, is not Judas - no, it is upon Jesus. Was it predetermined for Jesus to live the only perfect life in the history of the world? Yes. Did He still have to do it? Yes. Was there still a war? Yes. Was it possible for Him to fail? No.

I believe every detail is worked out in conformity to His will. How much latitude can there be? That, of course, is also up to Him. When one believes He is predetermined, there cannot be much left to chance. What if that bomb had hit my dad? No chance.

I am captured by this predetermined understanding. Jesus said it all when He asked if there were any other way. He knew there was not. The perfect man made the only possible choice - not My will, but Yours.

It was all predetermined. The fall was inevitable. Sorry, Sharon, I just cannot see it any other way. Jesus was coming to die for our sins before there one "Let there be," came into existence.

Roy

Permalink Reply by Louis Akporiaye on October 31, 2010 at 3:56am

Nice one brother. All accepted.

Blessings.

Louis

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on October 31, 2010 at 2:38pm

Beloved Roy,

You threw the word chance out there acouple ot times. Here are my thoughts about the word.

What is chance? The word can be given many meanings.

The word can be use correctly to describe the Mathematical possibilities of an action. But we take fight when the word is use to describe “Spontaneous Generation”.

One common meaning of Chance: the occurrence and development of events in the absence of any obvious design; the unplanned and unpredictable course of events regarded as a power (i.e., chance was offering me success)

Ok here we go:Regarded as a power! At times disguised as “Spontaneous Generation” or self creation also. Which use is to explain the beginning/start of the Universe. By chance/“Spontaneous Generation” 15 to 20 million years ago the worlds came into existence it is said.
But what is chance?

What we have here is the Fallacy of Equivocation. This fallacy is perhaps the most simple and obvious of the fallacies of ambiguity. Here, a single term is used with two or more meanings in the same argument. In other words the word CHANCE subtlety acquires another meaning within the same argument. At one point the term describes the Mathematical possibilities of an action. But within the same argument and very subtlety the word acquires the meaning of a Power a force on its own. It is said that by CHANCE the Universe came into existence.

Chance has never been and never will be a POWER as is use by the scientific world and Philosophy at times within the same argument.

One thing is to use the word Chance to describe the mathematical possibilities and another to shift to the usage of the word as if it was something that has actual creative power. Something that would have the ability to bring things into existence. We use chance when we are ignorant of the various mathematical outcomes but it (chance) is nothing else than our inability to calculate all the variables involved in order to ignore the word chance and give the actual outcome to whatever action we are talking about. I will give an example to anyone interested in having one, simply ask.

CHANCE lacks any power to create or to affect changes in existing matters, it simply is a word. For chance to affect anything in this world or in the Universe it would have to be something that possesses power.

Chance is nothing more than an intellectual concept that describes mathematical possibilities.CHANCE IS NOT A THING AND IT HAS NO POWER AND TO SAY THAT THE UNIVERSE CAME IN TO BEING BY CHANCE, ARE WE THEN ATTRIBUTING CHANCE POWER? THEN WE ARE TALKING ABOUT SELF CREATION, WHICH IS LOGICALLY AND ANALITICALLY ABSOURB FOR IT BRAKES THE LAWS OF SCIENCE AND PHILOSOPHY.

I know the above goes off the topic, but I know my brother Wicus, the guilty party of this thread ahhaha (love you man ) is ok with me and my tangents. hehe.
Roy is also guilty for bringing up the word hahaha I was simply predestined to explain the meaning of chance here hahaha. God has allowed within His plan our ability to choose and has worked our choices into His overall plan.

Blessings all.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on October 31, 2010 at 2:58pm

Excuse me. Let me rephrase - There is no way possible that His plan will not be performed exactly as He has planned it. Is that better, brother?

There is nothing left to any power (man, nature or angelic) that could possibly in any way change the outcome of all that He has planned.

How's that?

Isa 46:11
From the east I summon a bird of prey;
from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose.
What I have said, that will I bring about;
what I have planned, that will I do. NIV

Is there any power in or out of this universe that can thwart the plan of God?

However,
Chance
a : something that happens unpredictably without discernible human intention or observable cause
b : the assumed impersonal purposeless determiner of unaccountable happenings : luck
c : the fortuitous or incalculable element in existence :

My intention was definition #1.
Roy

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on October 31, 2010 at 3:04pm

Roy,

Hey I know you did not mean it like some explain the word bro. I was just taking the opportunity granted by you using the word a couple of times bro. haha

After all you said about predestination which is right on, I understood how you were using the word, but again I was simply taking the opportunity granted. :)

Love to you bro.

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on September 30, 2010 at 12:31pm

Wicus,

Hopefully this helps. :)


Excellent question brother Wicus,

One that has wrecked my brain for a long time. What the brothers in the vid are saying is that we are accountable for our moral choices. God giving us insight into the future about the evil actions of a man, does not mean He placed the evil necessary in the man’s heart for that man to act as he did. It does mean that God knows all and He has chosen to give us prophesies in order to establish that His word is truth.

It is true that you will get various interpretations and views here when you bring up a topic, but REST Assured that nothing that deviates from sound fundamental teaching is accepted here or taught as truth. There is a host of bible believing Christians here who in a heartbeat will speak up if someone is teaching false doctrines that look to change the primary/fundamental doctrines of our faith. It is good to get different perspectives as long as you aligned everything to the word of God and seek the guidance of the Spirit to determine what is truth and what is not. It is good to know why others believe what they believe.

Blessings - Good topic and question.

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on September 30, 2010 at 7:59pm

What is predestination? - R. C. Sproul

When the Bible speaks of predestination, it speaks of God's sovereign involvement in certain things before they happen. He chooses in advance certain things to take place. For example, he predestined creation. Before God created the world, he decided to do it.

Usually when people think of predestination, they think about whether or not somebody was hit by an automobile on a given day because God had decided ahead of time that that should happen on that day.

Theologically, the principal issue of predestination in the Bible has to do with God selecting people for salvation beforehand. The Bible clearly does teach that somehow God chooses people for salvation before they're even born. Virtually every Christian church believes that, because this concept is so clearly taught in Scripture.

Paul refers to Jacob and Esau. Before they were even born, before they had done any good or evil, God decreed in advance that the elder would serve the younger: "Jacob have I loved; Esau have I hated." The point there is that God had chosen certain benefits for one of those two before they were even born.

The real debate is, On what basis does God predestine? We know that he predestines, but why does he predestine, and what is the basis for his choices? Many Christians believe that God knows in advance what people are going to do, what choices they're going to make, and what activities they're going to be involved in. As he looks through the corridor of time and knows what choices you will make, for example, he knows that you will hear the gospel. He knows whether you will say yes or no. If he knows that you are going to say yes, then he chooses you for salvation on the basis of his prior knowledge. I don't hold that position. I think that God does this sovereignly, not arbitrarily, not whimsically. The only basis I see for predestination in the Bible is the good pleasure of his own will. The only other reason is to honor his only begotten Son. The reason for his selection is not in me and not in you and not in some foreseen good or evil, but in his own sovereignty.

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