Judas Iscariot, the condemmed??

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Sarah Gardener on November 1, 2010 at 3:16am

Quick David, Roy and others Wicus needs a shot of God's real Free Willlllllll urgently.......

Permalink Reply by RoyW on November 1, 2010 at 5:32am

Do I dare ask what ROFL means? If it's bad, just forget it.

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on November 1, 2010 at 4:56am

Answer:

>>If before regeneration our so called free will is in bondage and after and always is subject to God's real Free Will then would we never sin again?

No not at all, that is not what the statement means to convey. We are sold to sin before we are born again. When we are born again we are given the capacity to choose God and Spiritual things. However God has every right to intervene in the affairs of man in any and all stages he may find himself. God is the potter, we are the clay is the clay ready to tell the potter what, when and how to do things? Does man ability to choose frustrate God's ability to do whatever He pleases? The answers are obvious.

This is what my statement meant.

Wicus

The problem is not with the words Free will, but with the meaning that some attached to it. You were dead in your trespasses and sins. You were at war against God. I could place and impressive list of verses to show that before you were born again, you were lost and blind and unable to choose anything of Spiritual worth. We were dead in sin. So brother, were you free? Ohhh yes, we were free, I agree, but free to do what?

Wicus we do have the ability to choose bro. :)

Permalink Reply by Sarah Gardener on November 1, 2010 at 5:26pm

The answers are obvious and I agree with that portion of your reply directed to me.

In regard to what you said to Wicus - and sorry to butt in - I agree that you are right that we are at war against God prior to conversion and I am sure that you could place an impressive list but don't even the wicked choose to do good things sometimes:

Rom 2:14 For when nations not having Law do by nature the things of the Law, they not having Law are a law to themselves,
Rom 2:15 who show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience witnessing with them, and the thoughts between one another accusing or even excusing,
Rom 2:16 in a day when God judges the hidden things of men, according to my gospel, through Jesus Christ.

This scripture is saying to me that the nations do do things in the law which would be good then - true? So they can obviously do some things right but of course I agree that they are sinners and need to repent.

I am not sure I fully understand what is being conveyed here.

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on November 1, 2010 at 8:13pm

Linda,

>>don't even the wicked choose to do good things sometimes:

Though man in his natural estate is spiritually dead, that is, entirely destitute of any spark of true holiness, yet is he still a rational being and has a conscience by which he is capable of perceiving the difference between good and evil, and of discerning and feeling the force of moral obligation (Rom. 1:32; 2:15). By having his sins clearly brought to his mind and conscience, he can be made to realize what his true condition is as a transgressor of the holy Law of God. This sight and sense of sin, when aroused from moral stupor, under the common operations of the Holy Spirit, is usually termed "conviction of sin"; and there can be no doubt that the views and feelings of men may be very clear and strong even while they are in an unregenerate state. Indeed, they do not differ in kind (though they do in degree), from what men will experience in the Day of Judgment, when their own consciences shall condemn them, and they shall stand guilty before God (Rom. 3:19). THE HOLY SPIRIT Chapter 13

The "seed" sown is the Word. It was scattered upon various kinds of ground, yet notwithstanding the purity and vitality of the seed, where the soil was unfavorable, no increase issued there from. Until the ground was made good, the seed yielded no increase. That seed might be watered by copious showers and warmed by a genial sum, but while the soil was bad there could be no harvest. The ground must be changed before it could be fertile. Nor is it the seed which changes the soil: what farmer would ever think of saying, The seed will change the soil! Make no mistake upon this point: the Holy Spirit must first quicken the dead soul into newness of life before the Word obtains any entrance. Do not all the unregenerate resist, and refuse to heed that Voice? How, then, is that opposition to be removed? THE HOLY SPIRIT Chapter 11

It Is said the Lord opened the heart of Lydia, that she attended unto the things that were spoken by Paul (Acts 16:14). Her heart was first opened in order for his words to have any effect or give any light to her. And this must be done by an immediate operation of the Spirit of God on her heart. This was the regeneration now under consideration, by which her heart was renewed, and formed unto true discerning like the single eye" (Samuel Hopkins, 1792).

Yes fallen man can do moral things, good things with no eternal or spiritual value though. A person must be quicken by the Spirit to be able to see their state of depravity.

Blessings

Permalink Reply by Sarah Gardener on November 1, 2010 at 10:32pm

We see differently in regard to the seed – I see it as this:

• The devil takes it away from their heart – the devil is the blame here
• Those who cannot endure trial and draw back or fall away – how can they fall away if they were never in a position to begin with?
• Those that are choked with cares and riches of life and bring forth no fruit of PERFECTION – fruit is expected of us the believers – why would God be expecting fruit from an unbeliever?
• Those that kept (an action required of us) the word and bring forth fruit with patience

Yes it is true that the Lord can open the heart (as in Lydia) and as He opened the heart to those that the devil then stole it away from their heart (Luke 8:12). It could not have been in their heart unless He put it there BUT THE DEVIL STOLE IT AWAY.

Yes fallen man can do moral things, good things with no eternal or spiritual value though. A person must be quickened by the Spirit to be able to see their state of depravity.

We agree here except I would say sinfulness.

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on November 2, 2010 at 2:49am

Linda,

We do see it differently and I thank you for taking the time to explain how you view it. I so wish many others would engage. These discussions help us to grow in all kinds of ways. Allow me to give you my view.

Right after the parable of the sower we see the disciples asking Jesus why He spoke in parables, Jesus said: Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.16 But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear;

After explaining to them why He spoke in parables, which the other Gospel state as, "Let's day understand and believe," (we know God takes no pleasure on the dead of the wicked ) and we understand that is there unbelieve that blinds them, Jesus may very well hide the message to not further their condemnation. Then He explains the parable to them and we see that the message of the kingdom receives varied responses from the people. The general truth conveyed is, that the doctrine of the Gospel, when it is scattered like seed, is not everywhere fruitful; because it does not always meet with a fertile and well cultivated soil.

The seed that is sown is the message of the kingdom. The soils are the people, the human hearts, who are confronted with the message. They can be compared to the different kinds of soils who receive the seed, which does not mean they became Christians, but heard and considered the message. Jesus only intended to warn us, that, in many persons, the seed of life is lost on account of various defects/problems, consequently it is either destroyed immediately, or it withers, or it gradually degenerates. Remember that he makes no mention of despisers who openly reject the word of God, but describes those only in whom there is some appearance of docility. But if the greater part of such men perish, what shall become of the rest of the world, by whom the doctrine of salvation is openly rejected? That Jesus says that the seed was sown in their heart does not mean they believed. The word does not comeback void upon those that have been quicken, but not among those who do not received it. How can they receive it? The devil takes the seed out of their heart Luke (8:11-15) tells us, so they may not believe and be saved. So they were not saved. We can infer that as hungry birds do at the time of sowing, this enemy of our salvation, as soon as the doctrine is delivered, watches and rushes forth to seize it.

But he that received the seed thrown into stony places. This class differs from the former; for temporary faith promises at first some fruit; but their hearts are not so properly and thoroughly subdued, it is not regenerated. If the word does not fully penetrate the whole heart, and strike its roots deep the result is people walking away from what they seemed to joyfully have embraced. Great commendation is due, no doubt. We see too many of this class in our own day, who eagerly embrace the Gospel, and shortly afterwards fall off; for they have not the Holy Spirit that seals a person.

When affliction or persecution ariseth on account of the word this group of persons are made uneasy by the offense of the cross. And certainly, as the heat of the sun discovers the barrenness of the soil, so persecution and the cross lay open the vanity of those, who are slightly influenced, but are according to Matthew and Mark, temporary, having professed for a time that they are the disciples of Christ and afterwards falling away through temptation they give the impression that they had true faith. According to Luke, Christ says that they believe for a time; because that believing resembles true faith. But they are not truly regenerated by the incorruptible seed, which never fadeth, as Peter tells us, (1 Peter 1:4;) and Isaiah reminds us as well. The word of God endureth for ever, (Isaiah 40:8; 1 Peter 1:25) are fulfilled in the hearts of believers, in whom the truth of God, once fixed, never passes away, but retains its vigor to the end. Still, those persons who take delight in the word of God, and cherish some reverence for it, do in some manner believe; and are different from unbelievers, who give no credit to God when he speaks, or who reject his word.

And he who received the seed among thorns. He places in the third class, those who would have been disposed to receive the seed within, if they had not permitted other things to corrupt and render it degenerate. You see the dead in trespasses and sins can't do it left to their own will, which is in bondage. The sinful affections of the flesh prevail over the hearts of men, and overcome faith.

But he that received the seed into a good soilMy question here is what made the soil a good soil? Those in whom the word of God not only strikes its roots deep and solid, but overcomes every obstacle that would prevent it from yielding fruit. It is impossible to find anyone who is pure and free from thorns? Though the produce/fruit may not be great, yet everyone who does not fall off from the sincere worship of God is reckoned a good and fertile soil. We ought to labor, no doubt, to pull out the thorns; but as our utmost exertion will never succeed so well, there will always be some remaining behind, none the less let each of us endeavor at least to kill the flesh, that they may not hinder the fruit of the word. Christ confirmed that truth by what immediately follows, when Christ informs us that all do not yield fruit in an equal degree. Some a hundred-fold, and some sixty-fold, and some thirty-fold. We learn that we have no right to despise those who occupy a lower degree of excellence for the master of the house himself, though he gives to one the preference above another on account of more abundant fruit designates all as good soil.

In a nutshell, let us learn that none are partakers of true faith, except those who are blessed with the Spirit of adoption, and who sincerely call on God as their Father; in whom that Spirit is never extinguished, so it is impossible that the faith which God has tattooed/engraved on the hearts of the godly shall pass away or be destroyed.

Blessings

Permalink Reply by Sarah Gardener on November 2, 2010 at 3:42am

I disagree with your interpretation of the Parable of the Sower David and will leave it at that.

http://www.bibletruths.net/archives/BTAR245.htm

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on November 2, 2010 at 3:54am

Linda -

Is ok to disagree, so all is well. Like you like to say: The Holy Spirit leads us to all truth. I have in the past believed as you do, but I kept studying (of course I am in no way insinuating you have not kept studying, simply making a personal reference) and I find myself in a similar but different place. I have been where you are now at and I am very ok with where you are at, been there and done that. I remain open and I continue to study, so who knows where I will be tomorrow.

Man in no way is passive in his salvation. We choose an irresistible beautiful and amazing Lord, very willingly. The article you attached above I can debunk, but I am not interested in debunking it. haha

Blessings :)

Permalink Reply by RoyW on November 1, 2010 at 5:29am

Linda,

Yes, you are right. You would be a liar as all man would if you said you didn't sin. Yes, God made man with the desire to sin and the ability to make that choice to do so. Not only did He make us with the ability to choose sin, He put within us a desire so strong that He knew we would. To some that makes God guilty of sin. That is ridiculous. God cannot do so. However, God can't create God. Man is not God. Man is lower than the angels. If angels fell, what chance do you think that man has?

You do not need to make excuses for God. He knew man would sin. It was all part of His plan. I think it has been said enough that God does not sin nor did He make man sin. However, He did make man the way that He made him. God did not want a bunch of robots. Then, why did God give man all these strong desires? (You confessed above that you have desires you have not been able to overcome, yet.) You continually cry that you want to be free of that. You hate that because you love God so much. Christ says to you that He forgives you yet you hold Him at arms length because you still feel so guilty.

Faith in God means more than just believing He exists. You also believe He knows exactly what He is doing. Why did God make Paul suffer so many terrible things? He was beaten, shipwrecked, stoned, left for dead and may even have been dead, yet he persevered. Paul learned the sufficiency of God's grace. This is what you must learn.

Well, there I have gone again and stepped outside of where I should be. I will withdraw, for now.

Your brother,
Roy

Permalink Reply by RoyW on November 1, 2010 at 7:50pm

Linda,

You have done an excellent job listing all your responsibilities towards Him. Does He have any responsibility towards you and if He does what are they? It is good that you want to do. You want to do, to perform, to succeed, to be perfect. What is His responsibility? Is there any? Since He provided salvation, is it now up to you to keep it? When you say, "I know I have to WITH THE SPRIT overcome those desires that are not godly." You say you have to or what? Are you that confident in yourself that you will completely overcome those desires that are not godly? I hear conditional situations in your writing.

I hear Him saying, "You belong to Me." I'm not sure but I think I'm hearing you say back, "Yes, I belong to You if I can do all You expect from me." Again, I am probably stepping way out of bounds. I want to clarify that I think that is what I am hearing. I probably am not.

Roy

Permalink Reply by RoyW on November 1, 2010 at 8:22pm

BTW (How's that for an acronym?),

I mention these things since there may be others who feel their responsibility is to fulfill His expectations for their salvation to be secure. I am not necessarily referring to just one person here.

• ‹ Previous
• 1
• …
• 9
• 10
• 11
• 12
• 13
• …
• 17
• Next ›
• Page