Judas Iscariot, the condemmed??

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on November 1, 2010 at 5:51am

hahaha Very good my brother. I need a cup of coffee. hahaha

The devil is no challenge for God. He is not a thing to God, but a fallen angel. But I think i follow you.

Love to you.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on November 1, 2010 at 6:09am

Wicus,

The beauty of these discussions is that they drive you to the Word of God. Learning more about His Word is very good. Growth takes place by studying His Word.

Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on November 1, 2010 at 5:49am

athiesm
1 a : disbelief in the existence of God or any other deity b : the doctrine that there is neither God nor any other deity — compare AGNOSTICISM
2 : godlessness especially in conduct : UNGODLINESS, WICKEDNESS

atheist : one who subscribes to, advocates, or practices atheismsynonyms see AGNOSTIC

Tom,
You may be an unbeliever at this point, but I don't think you are an atheist.
May the Lord bless you with His free gift of life everlasting as you learn to trust on him Who paid the price for you. I pray this in the Name of Christ, my Savior...

After thought: You are predestined for something. You are free to choose Christ through your free will.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on November 1, 2010 at 8:44am

Rita,

You are a rascal. haha

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on November 1, 2010 at 6:03am

Greetings all,

If any of you think that this topic will be settled here on AAG in this forum i have bad news for you ... it's not going to happen. This discussion is so old and has had two major camps and some other variations for so long and great men (and women) of God have debated this and in the end we still have two major camps and some other variations.

Here is an article I wrote a few years ago that displays my view on the matter. I am in neither of the major camps, but see that both coexist, Freewill and Predestination. The article is an overview and is not meant to be comprehensive.

Lord Bless,
LT
___________________________________________________________

Predestination Vs. Freewill

Predestination and free will. It is not an either or, but actually "both." God has a plan that will come to pass. The prophesies have been given. The "end time" event will come to pass as God has said. God is sovereign and He is in control. These truths do not necessitate that God has to micromanage our life. God, in His authority and will, has given man freedom of choice (liberties). We have the freedom to choose many aspects regarding our life. We can choose our career, spouse, location to live. These choices are limited by the interaction with other humans, such as choosing to marry a person, but one's choice may chose to reject them as theirs and therefore no marriage occurs. You also have the freedom to surrender to Jesus or reject Him. You can choose to go to church or reject church. The choice is yours because God has extended that liberty to you. Your activity will not derail the plan of God that arcs over all that is going on in the day to day activity of man.

God's plan has a purpose and will come to pass. God knows the future of each day's activity in advance. He knows when the end will come. In His foreknowledge He sees the culmination of all things. In fact He gave a clue to the timing in Matthew 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." (NIV)

Therefore, God's plan is unfolding and coming to pass and at the same time, in the midst of it all we have the freedom to make choices. God knows the choices we will make in advance. This knowledge does not mean that He made you act this way or that. He knew what you would do and fits it into His plan and purpose. He also plans your blessings along the way as well as the discipline that He may have to apply to our lives to help us become what we ought to be as believers. An example of a blessing awaiting one who comes to Jesus is the gift of the Holy Spirit to come and indwell us. The blessing is prepared for us, but not actually received until we accept Jesus as Savior. Being filled with the Holy Spirit is a blessing that we may have coming, but not actualized until the time of sanctification. God also knows who will completely reject Him. This knowledge does not force Him to treat them any different. He loves them fully. They enjoy a full life on earth and often even prosper. What is amazing is that in His forbearance He knows they will reject Him and He gives them full life while the whole time they break His heart. God does not rejoice in anticipating their judgment, but weeps over their rejection and impending damnation due to their rejection of His Son.

One more aspect must be included. Sovereign God has given man free will, but He also may intervene at any moment overriding that will. For example, if a robber were to hold you at gun point and desire to take your life. The robber has chosen to kill you, God can intervene and save your life. We have multitudes of stories where God has done just that and there are times He does not intervene. In those times we must find comfort from His Word, such as Rom. 8:28. He may work on the will of an unbeliever to surrender something to His cause. He may use them for a certain purpose, such as Pharaoh. The Bible is clear on this and that is God hardened his heart. He did not harden it towards God. Pharaoh’s heart was already hard toward God. He hardened it toward Israel, because God knew what needed to happen to awaken the Israelites and the process that God would use to deliver them and to demonstrate His power.

A better way of saying what we have is "liberty" instead of free will. There is a limit to our freedom and God limits His interaction with us allowing us these liberties. God, because He is sovereign, can do this.

Summary:
* God's plan is coming to pass and man cannot stop it.
* God is sovereign and has made a ruling that established man's liberties.
* Man has liberties in this life to make decisions affecting our life on earth and with Him, but we do not alter or stop His plan from coming to pass.
* God's foreknowledge enables Him to know our choices in advance.
* In that foreknowledge He establishes our blessing and discipline, prepared for the right moment. He uses us and our decisions to fit into his plan. (Can you imagine God's plan as pliable. It can be stretched and altered in shape, but never broken or eliminated. It is flexible daily and yet set for eternity. The end will come.)
* He has the sovereign privilege to override our decisions.

Thus we find that God is still fully sovereign and we have liberties in this life granted us by our sovereign God.

What about Judas? Father God knew the choices that Judas was going to make. God positioned Judas to be Judas (Jesus selected him) and at the same time fulfill God's plan all the way to the 30 pieces of silver, the betrayal, the kiss and even his death. God used Judas. God did not make Judas do these things. Judas was being Judas. This is impossible for us to orchestrate, but simple enough for our omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent Father in heaven to accomplish.

Last thought: Until I came to Christ I did not love Him. Now I freely love Him. If God pulled me out to soon my love would not be of freewill, even though He knew I eventually would love Him. I had to live my life and come to that point for it to truly be a love of choice and not compulsion.

Lord Bless,
LT

Permalink Reply by RoyW on November 1, 2010 at 6:21am

LT,

The good I see in these discussions is correcting those less than correct positions we take. As we progress in the posts, I see positions changing even though we would never admit it. We all have much to learn. These that are willing to post, are growing in their faith. They might state a position that is indefensible. It is better to have that position challenged in this environment than out there among unbelievers (anyway, that is what I think). Those that perpetrate free will need to understand that the atheist does not think like that. He thinks he is subject to those strong desires that reside deep within him. That hinders him from coming to Christ as he thinks he must stop that kind of thing.

Anyway, I think it is good. What do you think? We may not solve the issue but we will certainly improve in our skills and be better prepared to answer a world without God.

Praise the Lord!
Roy

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on November 1, 2010 at 6:32am

Roy,

I am all for the discussion and the benefit that can come through such discussions as long as everyone stays civil, I hope you know me that well by now :-) We need to simply understand that in the end of the day not everyone will align with our personal view or one of the major camps ... and that is OK.

My commnet was not to thwart the discussion, but to help us realize there will be differences long after this discussion fades away into the archives of AAG.

Lord Bless,
LT

Permalink Reply by RoyW on November 1, 2010 at 6:37am

Amen.

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on November 1, 2010 at 6:54am

God willing I will be here to discuss it some more cause theses topics Rock

Or i will be in heaven having a cup of coffee with arminius hhahahah

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on November 1, 2010 at 6:58am

David,

I am glad to know that there will be coffee in heaven. I have been worried about that (sweating profusely) ... hahaha

Lord Bless,
LT

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on November 1, 2010 at 7:00am

hahahaaha ohhh God has Kona Coffee imported from Hawaii hahaha :) ok don't talk to me LT i got to work hahaha

Permalink Reply by RoyW on November 1, 2010 at 7:31am

David,

Have you gone to bed, yet? I think you have been up all night researching.

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