Judas Iscariot, the condemmed??

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Louis Akporiaye on October 30, 2010 at 7:16pm

Wonderful comments so far and I thank you all for your contributions. However, I will like to come in here by trying to address some questions Brother Scribe D’Nucov asked.

Now let us take the case of Peter who felt sorry for what he did as an example to explain the case of Judas. Everyone of us knows that Peter boasted (according to his human strength/will) to defend Jesus even with his life, but Jesus responded “Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice” and if you move on to Matthew 26: 69-74 you will see how Peter betrayed Jesus. Moving on to the next verse, according to the scripture which says “And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly”. From here, it is obvious that Peter was not in control of his will because he wept that he could not do what he said; instead the words of Jesus came to pass. Likewise Judas, he had no control over what would happen. Even though God had not predestined him to act that way which God did anyway, he still would have done it that the words of Christ may be fulfilled just as in the case of Peter. One of the differences between Peter and Judas’s case is that Jesus said woe to Judas and strengthened Peter and it happened as he had said.

Talking about the aspect of Pharaoh, God was the chief planner. His hand was at work and no other hand. Let us not try to change this because of the knowledge we have acquired over time. God made it clear to Abraham from the beginning that his children would be held captive and in other for this to happen, Joseph had to be born. Mind you brothers, Joseph did not will to go to Jail to become prime minister in Egypt, neither did he will for his brothers to throw him into a well or even sell him into slavery. If he were given the opportunity to choose, I think you and I know that he would have chosen to be with his father and little brother. Even Jacob who was the father of Joseph wept over the supposed death of his son because it was not also Jacob’s will for his son to die early. Taking all these into consideration, one will see that man’s action or will in God’s plan does not count. What counts is that he had planned everything even before we were born.
I believe no one will tell me Joseph had power over what happened to him at that time. And if we examine this carefully, we will see that he needed to go to Egypt for the children of Israel to go into captivity in future (another point). Was it their will to go into slavery? Did they have the power to change what had already been planned and told to their forefather?

From the above analogy, it is obvious that God wanted Judas to betray Jesus (for his plan to be perfect). One question, why would God advise Judas to go against his plan according to your statement “Brother Scribe”? Did you not hear Jesus response to Peter when he (Peter) told him he (Jesus) will not die? Can God send Jesus to die and also tell him to tell the person who will complete his will to avoid doing his will?

Let me try to explain this last question which I know is not an easy one.

Could it be true that God intended to punish Judas for doing the very thing that would result in salvation for millions of others while not for himself?
Judas was predestined to suffer because he had to play his part in the salvation of the saints. His case from my perspective is an example to many people who call themselves followers of Christ. Today, Christians are categorized according to their hypocrisies. Jesus said it that he knows his own and his own will hear his voice and follow him. He did not say with mouth or by confessing him with the mouth, but by putting his words to action. Christ choose Judas, he knew his purpose of choosing him (my believe) Judas belonged to satan and Christ knew from the first day he saw Judas that “this is the person that would betray me” so he had to choose him among the 12 (because everything had been planned from above). Even though it sounds unfair if we view it from the human angle it was Judas’s nature to be greedy. He was simply a follower who did not know why he was with Christ at that time, his eyes were divided and it was his nature to be that way (he could not help the situation). The case of Ananias and Sapphir his wife is a good example to explain what Judas role in the life of Christ meant. On the day of Pentecost, 3000 people were converted but these two people were among the plenty that were converted but were not truly converted. Their actions showed that they belonged to satan but because they saw the crowd that believed in Christ, they followed (one might also say they were interested in Christ and also their properties). When it was time to show their sincerity, which they were not compelled to show anyway, they brought out their true nature. These people were predestined to be like that (they had divided hearts). They could not have helped what happened to them. They did not think they would be used as examples to others who go to church for going sake. Their destruction showed that everyone who follows Christ with their presence in church or maybe by taking part in church activities without giving him their entire hearts is regarded as not chosen and they will be consumed without delay on the last day.

5. We will ultimately find that our repentance or rebellion was already part of His plan, and will perfectly weave into what God has already promised (or warned) - yet it was our own choice and our own decision that brought us to that place.
I will like to comment on the above statement. I will draw reference from the statement of a friend I met some time ago. He told of the bad things he had done and how many souls he had taken. His problem started when he was 10 when his parent part ways. This child’s father was never concerned about the well being of the children and did not even want to see his wife. The woman was forced to share her children among family members to be slaves to them. But this child decided to go his own way. He struggled day by day to pay his school fees but still could not meet up, during this time; he was exposed to many dangerous activities which he embraced. He went into robbery but was very sensible (he thinks he was sensible), which is why he is still alive today. He expressed how he did not want that kind of life but he was compelled to live it.

From the above story, it is obvious that a mistake in one’s up bringing can determine the kind of road one will pass to get to his destination which we don’t know (human perspective). Many of us have ambitions because we had parents who catered for us, what about those who are compelled to live a life they did not plan? Let us now try to change the fact that certain things happen to us as a result of circumstances. This is where predestination comes in. The child that is destined to survive the process goes through why the others perish. I can remember this young man told he lost one of his younger brothers as a result of the separation. Did the child choose to die?
To ultimately crown it all, this young man who told me his story told me there was a time he started working as a laborer in a tractor farm and his father was getting old. He went to visit his father one day and the man was crying (why would he be crying?). This man was compelled to act that way because he was bewitched (with black magic) by a woman outside her home to send his wife and children away and marry her.
It is obvious that the story teller’s actions were not his will, he did not choose it but circumstances pushed him into doing all the bad acts. Thank God for him, he was chosen for salvation and today he is a Christian, unlike others who could not come out.

Can we also use the case of the Israelites battles as example? Did you see the case of Gideon (Jerubbaal) defeating thousands of soldiers with just 300 soldiers? Could the adversaries have won the battle when it was God’s will for the 300 to prevail? Everyone would agree that the adversaries willed to win but their will did not stand.

To conclude my comment, I will say Judas, Joseph, Pharaoh, etc. could not have had the power to change what had been said by the Almighty Creator. Who are they to change what He had said?

God bless you all

Louis.

Permalink Reply by ScribeD on October 31, 2010 at 1:06am

Brother Louis, I'm sorry but I think that you have misunderstood my comments and you seem to be assigning a belief to me that I do not have.

First: I agree with what you have said: "To conclude my comment, I will say Judas, Joseph, Pharaoh, etc. could not have had the power to change what had been said by the Almighty Creator."

Amen. God's word cannot be defeated. However, you will see that there is nowhere in Zecharia's prophesy that says Judas Iscariot must be the one to fulfill it. I believe that if you follow the entire narrative of Jesus interaction with his disciples (I have done so many times) you will see that Jesus makes it clear that He must be betrayed, but that He is urging his disciples not to be the instrument of that betrayal. It is not until the final hour that Jesus reveals that Judas has made the final decision of being the instrument of Satan. Yet, I'm sure that Judas never realized that he had become the instrument of Satan until it was too late.

To believe that the Sovereignty of God means that we have no freewill, then you have a situation where man could sit in judgment of God. You would have a situation where God is the author of evil. This is not possible. God works his sovereignty without force. Read Jesus again, my brother and see how many times he pleads with us to learn from the Law, the Prophets and circumstances of our own lives to see that God is leading us to repentance. We even pray that God will not lead us into temptation - because God wants us to never be the instrument of evil.

Clearly, we have the scripture that claims that God is calling all of mankind to repentance. How can that be true if God left Judas out? How can that be true if he left Pharoah out? Then the scripture would have to say that God calls most men in most places to repent. It does not say that.

Just as Nineveh could fulfill God's word by repentance, so could Pharoah have done also. Pharoah instead allowed his heart to harden by his own pride. Pharoah was destroyed, but it was not a foregone conclusion that this must be so. God could have granted him forgiveness for repentance, just as He did to Nineveh.

In the same way, God could have granted forgiveness for Judas' repentance just as he did to Sampson. We read that Sampson is reckoned as a faithful one in the Hebrews 11 Hall of Faith, yet he was just as rebellious as Judas ... until Sampson repented. The fact is that Jesus knew that Judas had a fully UNrepentant heart, given over to Satan. Satan was in fact (I believe) attempting to thwart the plan of Salvation by the betrayal. What Satan did not know was that he was playing exactly into God's plan.

This is another example of how God's sovereignty is not by force: it even confounds Satan. If God were just doing His work by force, it would be completely without need for Satan's involvement.

This is why it is imperitive for us, as God's people in the world today, to be very circumspect in regard to following the words of Jesus without trying to build our own kingdom by our own plan. Otherwise, as many preachers have done in our generation, we may find ourselves to be fighting against God to build our own kingdoms with our own plans. Every time I have seen a leader trying to force something, I know it is no longer about God's will, it is about that person's pride.

Judas made the critical mistake of thinking He could force Jesus to reveal himself as the Messiah. Judas was not intending that Jesus would be crucified! He believed that he had found a way for this miracle worker to move into action sooner and defeat Rome - to bring about a new Golden age. This is why Judas was so distressed - because he thought he had found a way make Jesus into the powerful Messiah that he believed Jesus should be and would be. But instead Jesus was in fact crucified. Judas never expected that.

However, God is NOT a tyrant. He does not act by force, rather He acts by grace.

The mistake of Judas is the same mistake made by countless Religious leaders who think they have the power to make God do something. They think they know the plan and that they are the key to God's ultimate fulfillment of it. This has happened to countless leaders that I have watched over the last 30 years.

The message of Judas Iscariot is very clear that we ought not to take the Lord beyond his word; lest we become his enemy. God's will cannot be thwarted, but we can find ourselves playing the role of his adversary and fulfilling his will by doing the work of Satan.

blessings,

Scribe

Permalink Reply by Carla on October 31, 2010 at 3:16am

Scribe,

It's good to see you here again brother.

Amen and Amen!

Permalink Reply by Louis Akporiaye on October 31, 2010 at 4:32am

Thank you Brother , I think Brother David has answered the question of where evil originated from.
Please read David’s statement:

>>Ok,here's a question in response: For us,where does evil originate and what exactly is sin?
The origin of evil is one I cannot answer. I have read much about it but I cannot answer it. I know evil would not exist if God did not want it to exist. The only reason why evil exist is because in withing God's plan for now. Out of the thousands of ways He could have created us and the universe, He chose the current one. Knowing very well what would happened.

God's priority is not the salvation of every human being, that is not His priority, if it was He would save everybody for He has the power and authority to do so. His priority is His glory and His glory is demonstrated by saving some and passing righteous judgment upon others.

Where does evil originate, well like you yourself said evil is the absence of light. Evil is nothing. We cannot altogether deny the reality of evil. So what do we mean when we say that evil is nothing. I mean that evil is nothing? In the world or the world's system we get the idea that evil is some sort of independent substance, that evil exists in and of itself and that it influences the affairs of our life and of this world. But evil is not a thing that has existence. Evil has no being. It has no ontological status. Rather evil is an action of something that is a thing. I am something, you are something, and when I do something that is not good, then I am doing something that is evil. Evil, then, is the activity of a being. But it itself has no being.

So what being is the originator of evil? Let's see, Satan sin/disobeyed and broke God's laws by using his intelligence to reason and choosing to sit on the throne of God. But God already knew that and created Him with the capacity to sin and also knew his creation would choose to sin and though He could have created him with the ability to choose without the ability to sin, He did not. He made him just like He made him. So who created evil. I don't know.

Isaiah 45:7 in the King James Version reads, “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” How does Isaiah 45:7 agree with the view that God did not create evil? There are two key facts that need to be considered. (1) The word translated “evil” is from a Hebrew word that means “adversity, affliction, calamity, distress, misery.” Notice how the other major English Bible translations render the word: “disaster” (NIV, HCSB), “calamity” (NKJV, NAS, ESV), and “woe” (NRSV). The Hebrew word can refer to moral evil, and often does have this meaning in the Hebrew Scriptures. However, due to the diversity of possible definitions, it is unwise to assume that “I create evil” in Isaiah 45:7 refers to God bringing moral evil into existence. http://www.gotquestions.org/Isaiah-45-7.html

In the Westminster Catechism, we’re asked “What is sin?” And we’re told that sin is any “want of conformity to or transgression of the law of God”. Sin is described as a privation, as a want or a lack of conformity to the standards that God has set for righteousness. Sin is a privation (a want of conformity to) to the law of God.

The most frequent answer says that evil is located in human free will. The one who brings evil into being is exercising the faculty of choosing (a faculty given to them by God). Just as Lucifer (a fallen angel) went from being good to being evil when he exercised his free will to disobey God. The problem that prior to evil choices being made, a creature must have some sort of an inclination to evil. Some have come up with the concept of “concupicience” — something which is of sin and which inclines to sin but itself is not sin. That seems clever, but the problem is that whatever is of sin and inclines to sin is sin. It would seem to me that a being with an inclination to sin is sinful. Evil is not good, but it is good that there is evil. Otherwise, it would not be found in a world governed by a perfect God. God ordained that evil would come into being. Because evil things are working for good. Romans 8:28 could not be true unless God has ultimate power over evil. God ordained that evil would come into this world. Not naively, so that we would know the difference between good and evil, but for the sake of His redemptive purposes. When Joseph meets his brothers in Egypt, he says: “I’m not God. I know what you did. I know what your intentions were as moral creatures. But God meant it (the very same thing) for good” (Gen. 50:20). Sproul

To further add to David’s comment, what did the below verses talked about?

Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
(KJV) Note that all things means “no exceptions”

One cannot say God does evil, far be it, but it will be better to say he created evil. satan we know is the father of all ungodliness (evil) and he was created by God. He (satan) caused man to commit the first sin and all these while it has been him in the entire world ruling people’s lives with his alluring and flamboyance possessions. He even offered Jesus his possessions but Jesus rebuked him. Can one say satan’s sin against God was a malfunction? That definitely cannot stand because God is perfect. This means, He created satan just as he wanted him to be and He knew satan was going to sin against Him before satan was created, and He was not ignorant of what satan is doing in the world today before He created him.

What I can see from my Bible is that God had chosen some for salvation and others for his righteous judgment. And those who have been chosen should be grateful for what He has done for them, which is why I’m always thankful to Him. Salvation is by Grace and it does not depend on our choosing what is right or wrong because at the end we will end up choosing the right thing (grace at work). He has chosen His sheep before Christ was even sent to earth. He will have mercy on whomever He wills.

Thank you brothers; this network has really shown me a lot of new things. Thank God for the designer/owner, all the visitors and members. God bless you all.

Louis.

Permalink Reply by ScribeD on October 31, 2010 at 11:11pm

Louis, it is very rare for me to criticize the work of any competent translator - especially the KJV. However, I think that the there is a vast array of translators who would agree with me that the KJV choice to us the word "evil" in Isaiah 45:7 is categorically flawed. Your own statements above indicate that Calamity is a better word and it does not have a logical flow to the context of the rest of the verse.

Does God create calamity? Yes, there are plenty of examples of that in the Bible, beginning with banning Adam and Eve from the Garden, to Noah's flood to the diaspora where Israel was sent into captivity (both times). Clearly God causes calamity - for a specific purpose: the repentance and sanctification of his Children. If you read the prophets from Moses to Malachi, it is unmistakable that God intends these things to solidify our resolve to trust in him - and to sort out those who refuse to do so.

Also, we see that James specifically contradicts this line of thinking (KJV use of the word "evil") in James 1:13 "...God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone." If Evil was God's creation then he would be guilty of causing all beings to be tempted.

However, please to not make the mistake of thinking that I am saying that God is passively allowing evil. He has a very specific purpose for allowing evil and yet he also calls us to flee evil, to shun temptation, to actively choose righteousness.

To try to differentiate between God "creating evil" and God "causing evil" is splitting hairs to a degree that I can't fathom.

If we take a look at the story of Job, we see a narrative of how God interacts with the evil nature of Satan. God's righteous servant provokes hatred and envy in Satan. God himself did not create that hatred or envy. Then, we see Satan challenge God to strip away the hedge of protection and ultimately the blessings that God had given Job. It was not God's desire to harm Job and so God does something more important than the hedge of protection or the blessings; He gives Job faith. He gives Job utter trust and dependance in God that even Job's wife cannot understand.

Personally, I think that if you see God as a harsh tyrannical dictator that strips away our ability to make our own choices - your own world will be filled with harshness.

I believe in a God that is both fully IN CONTROL and yet able to allow for our own choices, that allows us to learn by our own error. I see Him as a loving Father that I frequently do not fully understand but that I have learned to instinctively trust - even when I don't like His methods. I know that I cannot trust in myself, but I can trust in the awesome mercy and design of a God who allows me to make mistakes; a God who will restore me if I get off track; a Father and Savior who will keep me without forcing me; a God who will guide me to my destiny through my trusting choices and through my dependence in Him.

~ Scribe

Permalink Reply by RoyW on November 1, 2010 at 1:45am

Scribe,


I also see a loving God that loves His creation. I see a God that gives us choices. I do not see Him as a tyrannical God. I understand His ways are complicated but perfect. We are in complete agreement on these issues.

Adam was in the Garden with God. He had communed with God. However, when Eve sought to persuade him to follow her instead of God, he fell. Was that fall ordained? Eve was tricked (deceived) but Adam knew exactly what he was doing. Adam was God's first of the creation of man. He was as good as it was going to get until the second Adam would come. However, the desire for his wife was so strong he could not resist. Who put that desire in him? David cried out:

Ps 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. KJV

As we take a look at that very first man, we can easily see that the fall was going to happen. That fall did not take place outside of the sovereign will of God. That fall was part of His plan. I sense in you a desire to excuse God and remove all responsibility from Him for whom Adam was. God created that creature. He knew that when He created Adam the way He created him, he would fall. Was God surprised when Adam fell? Of course not, His plan was made before He ever created Adam in the first place. Adam's desire for Eve was too great for him to overcome. God could have chosen to make Adam without that strong desire for Eve. However, that is the way He made him.

Why did God make man the way He made him? He has purpose. He ways are right. His ways are perfect and thus His creation is perfect. The plan is perfect. Let me humbly tell you something, Scribe. His plan is going to work. You do not have to make excuses for God. He knows exactly what He is doing and what He is doing is exactly right. He knew what He was doing when He created Adam to fall. There is no other way to look at it.

What drives man? What wars within him? Those who He has made righteous, scream for the release of this sinful flesh. He knows the desires of his flesh are sin. Christ comforts him. Come to me, He says. I will make your burden light. Christ forgives us of all our sin. This is a wonderful plan. The plan works. We are wonderfully made. This is not a tyrannical God. This is a loving God that did not want a bunch of robots to love. Thus, He made us just exactly the way He made us. The fall was inevitable but the purpose is perfect.

God is not afraid to take the responsibility of making Adam the way that He made him. His purpose is perfect.

Praise the Lord!
Roy

Permalink Reply by Rod Askew on November 1, 2010 at 2:17am

Roy,

I'm sorry, but that just doesn't add up.
God made Adam perfect in His own image (which he states) and yet Adam was a lying, cheating man who failed and tried to decieve God.
Don't you see the contradiction and hypocrosy of what you have stated.

Why would God make Adam perfect in His own image if he knoew he was going to fail.
Why not just make him a failure in the first place.
Did God have something to prove to someone.
Why doesn't scripture say " and God made a failure and called it Adam, knowing fully well that Adam would lie and cheat and fail".
Do you believe that God gained some personal satisfaction from Adam failing amd falling into sin.
I can't picture God on His throne, looking to his right hand and saying, Ha! there you go Jesus I told you Adan was defective and a failure. Now go and fix him.

Man fails, God doesn't.
Man chooses to fail by his choices. If he didn't choose badly he wouldn't fail.
If he didn't choose the way of the world he wouldn't sin.
He would be perfect just as God made him.
You have to come up with a better story than God chose to fail as part of his plan.

Scribe, great answer and well stated.

Blessings
Rod

Permalink Reply by RoyW on November 1, 2010 at 2:21am

Rod,

It's good to know that when in the middle of night in Kansas when I can't sleep, there is someone on the other side of the world who is in the middle of the day.

Did God know when He made Adam that Adam would fall? Yes or no? If God knew when He made Adam that if He made Adam the way that He made him, that He would fall, well, you will just have to come to your own conclusions about that.

Blessings, but I think I am going to try to finish out this night with a little bit of sleep. Have a great day.

Roy

Permalink Reply by Rod Askew on November 1, 2010 at 2:40am

Roy,

God wiped out all but 8 people in the great flood.
Every living creature except those on the Ark.

This planning scheming God you speak of planned all that and even though he knew that all of these people would fail because he predestined it, still he wiped them out.
A bit cold blooded and murderous don't you think?
Is that the same loving God that you are pinning your hopes for salvation on and are now content to sit back and say, "it's all good, i've done enough"?

My loving God has asked me to keep striving for perfection and that's what I'll be pinning my hopes on. I sure won't be going fishing yet.

Blessings
Rod

Permalink Reply by Sarah Gardener on November 1, 2010 at 2:41am

Roy,

I am sure that God knew that they would fall but I doubt that He was pleased that it happened nor desired it to be as in desired the evil intended. His is Holy and Perfect.

Just as the angels left their first estate and fell so did Adam at the hand of the annointed cherub satan who had rebelled himself. They fell because of their own choice. They wanted to be as God (Gen 3:5).

When God flooded the world what did He say:

Gen 6:5 And Jehovah saw that the evil of man was great on the earth, and every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the day long.
Gen 6:6 And Jehovah repented that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved to His heart.
Gen 6:7 And Jehovah said, I will wipe off man whom I have created from the face of the earth, from man to beast, to the creeping thing and to the birds of the heavens; for I repent that I made them.
Gen 6:8 And Noah found grace in the eyes of Jehovah.

My Father was GRIEVED at the evil. He takes no pleasure in it and would not take any pleasure in people making Him the author of it. The author of it is none other then satan himself - who left his first estate to ascend to a greater height than God - according to his reckoning. IT CANNOT BE! There is none other than Yahweh Elohim.

Yes the fall was known and was, is and will be part of His plan - His plan to restore what He meant it to be before satan decided to rebel and change it through HIS TEMPTATION (not Gods) of Eve. His creation was good and satan spoiled it.

Satan is the author of evil - Yahweh just weaves His plans in and through it for HIS GLORY!

Satan is defeated and will be utterly cast down - his time is short!

God Bless and Keep!

Linda Ruth

Permalink Reply by RoyW on November 1, 2010 at 6:00am

Amen to Linda's post. And amen to Rod's post that asks me if I am putting my hope in the same God that wiped out all but eight people in the great flood. I know I can because of His Word. His Word is true. You can trust His Word.

Rod, keep striving for perfection but do not put your faith in your striving for I guarantee your striving will fail. Put your faith in His Word. His Word will never fail.

Roy

Permalink Reply by Louis Akporiaye on November 1, 2010 at 9:33am

Wellk said... Perfect...

Blessings..

Louis

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