John 3:5

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Permalink Reply by Tammy on February 24, 2015 at 4:56pm

I've always believed the water is a woman giving birth & the Spirit is the new birth

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 24, 2015 at 7:00pm

There are various takes on this verse. I will share three.

1) That the water refers to water baptism. This view breaks down into two basic groups .... those who believe water baptism is required for salvation and those who believe it is necessary because of salvation. I do not believe water baptism is the point of this verse based on #3 below..

2) That the water and Spirit both refer to to the Holy Spirit for Jesus refers to Himself as Living Water. There are also those that see this as referring to both Jesus (water) and Holy Spirit (Spirit). 

3) That as Jesus was responding to the Jewish leader Nicodemus and would have responded in a way that Nicodemus could best grasp the inclusion of "water" comes from the Tabernacle and the requirements of the priests to be cleansed before doing almost any task and especially before entering into the most holy place. Thus, sin must be dealt with (water represents cleansing) and one must be born of the Spirit (new life) all possible by the work of Jesus Christ through His death. resurrection and ascension. This is my take on the verse.

Lord Bless,

LT

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Permalink Reply by Seek on February 24, 2015 at 7:37pm

I actually found a site that lists 5. The first two you gave were a couple of them. Another one Tammy gave. Another was the Bible (Word) was the water.

I've always gone with water baptism as being the outward sign that you've accepted Christ. Then I ran across a reference and started to study it out.

The original word used in this passage was:

ὕδωρ (hydōr)
Strong: G5204
GK: G5623

water, Mt. 3:11, 16; 14:28, 29; 17:15; Jn. 5:3, 4, 7; watery fluid, Jn. 19:34; ὕδωρ ζῶν, living water, fresh flowing water, Jn. 4:11; met. of spiritual refreshment, Jn. 4:10; 7:38

Eph. 5:26 ...that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word.

“If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water” (John 4:10).

“If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scriptures said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’ But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified” (John 7:37–39

How do you all see these references especially in light of the parts I've emphasized? I think churches have done things a certain way for so long it's just become an ingrained belief that even searching the Scriptures won't change. But there have been several beliefs I was taught but I never knew the Scriptures and so I couldn't question if they were true or not.

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 24, 2015 at 10:50pm

Yes, there are plenty who would agree with you on this. What you have posted is basically where #2 gets the view it holds.

Another interesting verse is Titus 3:5.

I think that we want to attempt to understand it in context. Jesus is speaking to Nicodemus. Yes, this is given to us as well, but it was a specific conversation. I believe Nicodemus would have understood the water as necessary for ceremonial cleansing with the idea of entering in, in this case entering the kingdom, as the focus of the conversation. Another aspect to consider is that the initial phase of salvation is justification and regeneration. With the water as the cleansing agent and the Spirit as the causation of our regeneration I think this ties back into Titus 3:5.

Note: I want to be clear that this is my view, but do not teach it as Bible fact. I think it is important to differentiate between opinion and solid Bible doctrine.

Lord Bless,

LT 

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Permalink Reply by Seek on February 25, 2015 at 2:59am

Well I've always been taught and believed it was baptism by water...literally. Yet after looking into this, and I really don't even remember what piqued my curiosity, I'm not convinced H2O had anything to do with what Jesus meant.

John said "I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit." So it may be that John was symbolizing baptism as washing with water but not the actual baptism of the Holy Spirit by washing with living water.

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 25, 2015 at 6:05am

The fact you are not convinced H2O had anything to do with it it an important point. We must try to determine whether it is literally water or being used symbolically. Then we have to seek to determine whether Jesus is speaking in terms that Nicodemus should have grasped and I think the context does show that to be the case because Jesus says as a teacher he ought to know these things. Thus, I do not think Jesus is bringing a new teaching foreign to Nicodemus, but rather the old truth that the Jewish leaders had lost sight of.

Again, for me I see it in the context of new life. What are the steps to knew life. If we apply that two points of justification and regeneration  I see the water and Spirit speaking to application of those two major items. 1) Being freed (cleansed) from the guilt of sin and 2) Being transformed. With that as my understanding The spirit side is easy to identify and understand ... Spirit gives birth to spirit. The water is more difficult. If we know the Spirit gives birth to spirit then we need to know what the water in this discussion does (again needing to first determine whether it is literal H2O or not). I would agree that it is not about the H2O, but rather the two points that the water and Spirit represent in relation to being born again.

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Permalink Reply by Amanda on February 25, 2015 at 10:28am

All the Scriptures about being immersed in water as a symbol of what really happens at new birth -- they all make so much sense, to me, in that light, such as:
Acts 2:38, “Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
Acts 11:16, "John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit."
Titus 3:5. One of my favorites.

My thoughts on this are that, when Scriptures speak of the Baptism of the Spirit, it is speaking of the new birth. 

1 Cor 12:13, "For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body ... and all were made to drink of one Spirit.”
John the baptist said, “After me comes he who is mightier than I, the strap of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit," Mark 1:7-8.
And John 3:5. 

The filling of the Spirit is something that happens subsequently to the new birth (as we drink of one Spirit). In Eph 5:18-19 "be filled with the Spirit" is a command that could only be followed after being born again. 

Yes, it is apparent that there is a difference between the two terms "Baptism of the the Spirit" and "Be filled with the Spirit" and the Baptism of the Spirit is the actual salvation experience of being born again.

Sorry for interrupting the conversation.

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Permalink Reply by Seek on February 25, 2015 at 5:22pm

I've never been clear on this verse. While knowing repentance and believing in Christ was to be saved, I always thought you were required to be baptized if possible. That if you refused to be baptized with water that it was maybe a sin or something. I saw being baptized in H2O as being something we were expected to do. Not really sure how to word it. But ultimately when the Bible spoke of being baptized, I had just always seen baptism as the kind done in church ever since I was a kid. Even though I'd read other scripture that could easily show that wasn't it, it just hadn't clicked or something.

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Permalink Reply by Tammy on March 4, 2015 at 4:26pm

The reason I've believed that the water was the woman giving birth is because of the question 'how can one be born again & return to the womb?' 

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Permalink Reply by Jenny on March 4, 2015 at 8:32pm

I agree. In the context, they had been talking about two types of birth: physical birth and spiritual birth, so it makes sense that the water would be alluding to the physical birth, and the Spirit alluding to the spiritual birth.

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Permalink Reply by Richard L. Broch, Sr. on February 26, 2015 at 8:44pm

Hi Group,

Good discussion, Char.

Let me add my take on this matter............

Let's start with Romans 6:3 -8, "Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? (4) Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. (5) For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection, (6) knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin. (7) For he who has died is freed from sin.(8) Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him." (N.A.S.B.).  

I use this passage in (H2O) baptism services.

These verses symbolize Jesus going to the cross to pay our sin debt. We don't have to do that......BUT, going down into the depths of water echo a cleansing of our sins, honoring what Jesus did in a much more painful way. Then coming up out of the baptism  - clean...and JUSTIFIED. It's the least a new Christian can do. However seems to me, some people won't be submerged for whatever reason.......

How about I Peter 3: 21, "And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you - not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."(N.A.S.B.)

The Apostle Peter is telling us that baptism is demonstrating, publicly, one's trust in God removing eternal scars of condemnation in a person's body.

When does a new believer receive the gift of the Holy Spirit?

Acts 2:38 tells us AFTER repentance, AFTER baptism......

Matthew 3:16 shows Jesus having the Spirit of God descend upon Him RIGHT AFTER COMING UP OUT OF THE WATER.

Does anybody wonder about a person, alone, praying for Jesus to come into their heart? in the woods? in their living room?............and never following up with a church....or being baptized......

Seems to me that baptism is part of the redemption process....evidently Jesus demonstrated this......and included it in His Great Commission ( Matt. 28:19).

And John's baptism was an act for washing, or repentance....... no gift of the Holy Spirit, until Jesus came to him "to fulfill all righteousness" (Matt. 3:15).

Grace and Peace to one and all.

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Permalink Reply by Seek on March 3, 2015 at 9:13pm

I have nothing against baptism and was baptized shortly after I was saved. I just don't believe it should be preached as necessary but instead as you stated it being symbolic and the least we can do.

Some people are afraid of water, especially if they've had a traumatic experience with it.

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