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Jewish Gehenna or Catholic Purgatory. What are your views
Most Christians dont believe in Purgatory. I know, but when I debate with those who reject the Catholic Canon of the OT but actually respect the Jewish religion, I generally get confused as to why they reject one and accept the other, since the Catholic purgatory comes from the Jewish belief in Gehenna - the jewish purgatory.
Please let me have your views and help me out with a little essay I am going to write on this subject.
Please note I am NOT trying to debate if Purgatory is a valid doctrine, but if those who reject it are aware that it comes from Judaism and what are their stand on this point.
Thanks!
PURGATORY:
An intermediate state through which souls are to pass in order to be purified from sin before they are admitted into the heavenly paradise. The belief in purgatory, fundamental with the Roman Catholic Church, is based by the Church authorities chiefly upon II Macc. xii. 44-45: "If he [Judas] had not hoped that they that were slain should have risen again it had been superfluous and vain to pray for the (dead. . . . Whereupon he made an atonement that they might be delivered from sin"; for this indicates that souls after death pass through an intermediate state in which they may by some intercession be saved from doom. The same view, that an atonement should be made for the dead, is expressed in Sifre, Deut. 210. The idea of an intermediate state of the soul, release from which may be obtained by intercession of the saints, is clearly dwelt upon in the Testament of Abraham, Recension A, xiv., where the description is given of a soul which, because its good and its evil deeds are equal, has to undergo the process of purification while remaining in a middle state, and on whose behalf Abraham intercedes, the angels joining him in his prayer, whereupon the soul is admitted into paradise.
Rabbinic Views.The view of purgatory is still more clearly expressed in rabbinical passages, as in the teaching of the Shammaites: "In the last judgment day there shall be three classes of souls: the righteous shall at once be written down for the life everlasting; the wicked, for Gehenna; but those whose virtues and sins counterbalance one another shall go down to Gehenna and float up and down until they rise purified; for of them it is said: 'I will bring the third part into the fire and refine them as silver is refined, and try them as gold is tried' [Zech. xiii. 9.]; also, 'He [the Lord] bringeth down to Sheol and bringeth up again'" (I Sam. ii. 6). The Hillelites seem to have had no purgatory; for they said: "He who is 'plenteous in mercy' [Ex. xxxiv. 6.] inclines the balance toward mercy, and consequently the intermediates do not descend into Gehenna" (Tosef., Sanh. xiii. 3; R. H. 16b; Bacher, "Ag. Tan." i. 18). Still they also speak of an intermediate state.
Regarding the time which purgatory lasts, the accepted opinion of R. Akiba is twelve months; according to R. Johanan b. Nuri, it is only forty-nine days. Both opinions are based upon Isa. lxvi. 23-24: "From one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another shall all flesh come to worship before Me, and they shall go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched"; the former interpreting the words "from one new moon to another" to signify all the months of a year; the latter interpreting the words "from one Sabbath to another," in accordance with Lev. xxiii. 15-16, to signify seven weeks. During the twelve months, declares the baraita (Tosef., Sanh. xiii. 4-5; R. H. 16b), the souls of the wicked are judged, and after these twelve months are over they are consumed and transformed into ashes under the feet of the righteous (according to Mal. iii. 21 [A. V. iv. 3]), whereas the great seducers and blasphemers are to undergo eternal tortures in Gehenna without cessation (according to Isa. lxvi. 24).
The righteous, however, and, according to some, also the sinners among the people of Israel for whom Abraham intercedes because they bear the Abrahamic sign of the covenant are not harmed by the fire of Gehenna even when they are required to pass through the intermediate state of purgatory ('Er. 19b; Ḥag. 27a).
History of Purgatory.The idea of the purging fire through which the soul has to pass is found in the Zend-Avesta ("Bundahis," xxx. 20): "All men will pass into the melted metal and become pure; to the righteous it will seem as though he walks through warm milk" (comp. Enoch, lii. 6-7, lxvii. 6-7). The Church Fathers developed the idea of the "ignis purgatorius" into a dogma according to which all souls, including those of the righteous who remain unscathed, have to pass the purgatory (Origen on Ps. xxxvii., Homily 3; Lactantius, "Divinæ Institutiones," vii. 21, 4-7; Jerome on Ps. cxviii., Sermon 20; Commodianus, "Instructiones," ii. 2, 9); hence prayers and offerings for the souls in purgatory were instituted (Tertullian, "De Corona Militis," 3-4; "De Monogamia," 10; "Exhortatio Castitatis," 11; Augustine, "Enchiridion ad Lauram," 67-69, 109; Gregory I., "Dialogi," iv. 57). Hence also arose in the Church the mass for the dead corresponding in the Synagogue to the Ḳaddish (see Ḳaddish).
- Boeklen, Die Verwandtschaft der Jüdisch-Christlichen mit der Persischen Eschatologie, 1902, pp. 118-125;
- Atzberger, Die Christliche Eschatologie, 1890, pp. 99 et seq., 162, 275;
- Herzog-Hauck, Real-Encyc, s.v. Fegefeuer;
- McClintock and Strong, Cyc. s.v.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Yael Levi-Bénédict on
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Hi David,
Read II Maccabees.
Thanks.
Ps. The video is NOT meant to have ANY authority! It is JUST a proof to my point - which I have been trying to make:
That praying for the dead is AN ANCIANT JEWISH practice based on Jewish Scripture AND tradition. NOT a Catholic invention, as many - most , I should say - evangelicals like to claim.
In fact, this is the whole point of this discussion, namely, NOT if Evangelicals will ever change their views, but if you can at least recognize that praying for the Dead has been around a lot longer than the Catholic faith. If you are humble enough to concede that, Iwill be happy.
Pax Domini!
Yeal.
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Permalink Reply by Tammy on
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Forgive my harshness Yeal but who the heck cares where it came from? It's still there in the present regardless of its beginnings.
Shalom
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Permalink Reply by ScribeD on
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Yael, II Maccabees was rejected as Holy Writ by the early Church Fathers, along with the rest of the Apocrypha. It was never quoted by Jesus nor the Apostles. It is not acceptable to call it "Bible", just because it has been added as additional text to the Holy Bible; any more than it is acceptable to add the book of Mormon to the Bible and call it the same.
This discussion of whether the Apocrypha is, or is not, Holy Scripture has been debated here and among some churches for over 2,000 years. It has been rejected by the majority of Protestant Christians, the early Church Fathers and many members of the Church of Rome. The Apocrypha is filled with historical and theological error.
The only reason why Roman Catholic doctrine still allows the Apocrypha, despite it's being so hotly contested from within and without the Vatican, is quite simply that you cannot support some of the questionable practices and doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church without it. That is the weakest of all reasons to consider it "Bible". It is a great reason to question those practices and doctrines.
It is a fools errand to try to resurrect this discussion, because there is no fruit to it. Since it is fruitless, I wonder why you want to try to keep calling this doctrine Biblical.
What is to be gained?
The truth is that what Jesus and the Apostles did teach about the afterlife gives no room for the idea of any kind of purgatory.
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Good word Scribe.
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Yael -
>>That praying for the dead is AN ANCIANT JEWISH practice based on Jewish Scripture AND tradition. NOT a Catholic invention, as many - most , I should say - evangelicals like to claim.
I do not primarily care who started a false teaching or when it was started, I care that the lie may not be taught as biblical truth. It is good to know the root of error, but is better to know the truth that kills it. We get rid of error with truth.
I have not done an in-depth study of who started praying to and for the dead, but i do agree with you that is goes way back, before the Roman Catholic practice. I am sure pagans did it before the Hebrews. Ultimately the root of it is demonic. From the father of lies, that serpent of old.
I hope you are not involved in such demonic practices.
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Well said.
I have been thinking about this at length. and the same point applies to the OT as I made about NT, which is: there is nowhere that this practice is actively taught in scripture.
So, by deductive reasoning, it makes sense that the people of Israel picked this up from their pagan neighbors. It seems most probable that they picked it up in Babylon or during the Period of Alexandrian Empire - eg that is why it first shows up in II Maccabees.
Regardless, it's a demonic practice.
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Yael, are you attempting to validate a doctrine, simply because the Pharisees believed it before the Roman-Catholics?
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Hi all and thanks for your replies!
Please watch this. Go to 2.39 minutes, when The Qadish is prayed.
This is the prayer that both catholic and jews pray for their dead. If the Protestant bible was complete you would probably be praying this as well. Again, my point was not if you guys agree with or not it but if you knew why catholics believe in the purification of the SAVED believers after death...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9Uyg0qHhec&feature=share&li...
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There is no purification of the dad. To be absent from the body is to be in the presence of the Lord.
To pray for the purification of the dead is to be in error and not a biblical practice. The Apocryphal books are not recognized as God inspired. Jesus did not go to hell to preach purification to the dead, but to proclaim his victory.
Read this common explanation concerning Jesus and his descent to hell/Abraham's bosom.
I am not sure I agree with it fully for there is not much that is said about the event, but this is more in line than the belief in the purification of dead believers. That is not biblical.
From: http://www.biblestudyplanet.com/s175.htm
Jesus Preaching In Hell"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison.” (1 Peter 3:18-19)
The verses above raise two questions:
1) Who are the spirits in prison?
2) What did Jesus preached to them?
THE SPIRITS IN PRISON“The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me, because the Lord has anointed Me to preach good tidings to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound.” (Isaiah 61:1)
Jesus came to preach good news, proclaim liberty to the captives, and open the prison of those who are bound.
Now those who died before Christ went to the cross went to Hades (Sometimes referred to as hell). Those who put their faith in God went to one side, where they were comforted. This side was known as Abraham's bosom (See Luke 16:25). Those who did not put their faith in God went to the other side where there was torment (verses 24-25 ). The two sides were separated by a great gulf (verse 26).
Those who put their faith in God were in Hades but they weren’t going to stay there forever. David had hope that God would lead him out of Hades when he said:“You will not leave my soul in Hades, nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.” (Acts 2:27)
Jesus did not go to Hades to suffer, He paid for our sins completely on the cross (John 19:30). He went to the faithful who were waiting for Him in Abraham’s bosom. They were in prison in the sense that they could not enter heaven until their sins were paid for. Although they had made sacrifices those sacrifices could never take away sin. They were a foreshadowing of Jesus sacrifice on the cross. That brings us to the message Jesus preached.
WHAT WAS PREACHED
The word “preached” in 1 Peter 3 is the Greek word kerusso which means to proclaim or herald. So Jesus was not preaching or evangelizing, He was making a proclamation or an announcement.
The announcement was probably similar to Hebrews 10:11-14:“And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.”
Putting this all together, Jesus told the faithful spirits in Hades He had paid for their sins once and for all, and was there to lead those who were once captive into heaven
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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One question Yael, what do these people in the video believe about Jesus Christ? Is He considered Lord and Savior to them?
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Dear Yael, it is an interesting question. Thank you for giving your background explanation.
You said: >>Most Christians dont believe in Purgatory...
I will answer that: while it is true that most Protestant and Bible-believing Christians do not believe in this doctrine, yet many Catholic Christians (not merely Roman Catholics) do hold some belief in this. However, it is primarily a Roman Catholic doctrine – within the general Christian world. The difference comes from who we accept as our authority: Is it the fixed record of Jesus and the Apostles in the Bible, or the every changing dogma of the Roman Catholic church?
You said: >>...but when I debate with those who reject the Catholic Canon of the OT but actually respect the Jewish religion, I generally get confused as to why they reject one and accept the other...
The reason why Protestant Christians generally reject it is quite simply that it is not specifically taught in the Old or New Testaments. We hold those two parts as one complete revelation, which is sufficient for all instruction in righteousness, according to these (and many other) scriptures.
2 Peter 1:2-4 “Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.”.
“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works...” (2 Timothy 3:16-17)
“...God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds...” (Hebrews 1:1-4)
and finally “...how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him...”(Hebrews 2:3)
We don't need additional revelation, we don't need oral tradition, we don't need papal decrees, we don't need any such things to be perfected. What we do need is to hear and obey what we have been given by Jesus and the Apostles.
You said: >>since the Catholic purgatory comes from the Jewish belief in Gehenna - the jewish purgatory...
I'm not fully versed in Talmudic/Pharisaical Judaism. Therefore, I'm not sure how far back this pergatory doctrine goes. I do know that Roman Catholics picked it up from one of the Apocryphal Books. Regardless, there are many doctrines which may have carried forward, which are in fact not Biblical and that were not taught by Jesus and not embraced by the Apostles.
I understand that Jesus was what we would today call a “Kerahyte Jew” – that is a Jew who placed the Word of God (Torah and Tenacht / The Law and the Prophets) infinitely above tradition (Talmud / oral tradition). Jesus was clear that any tradition which nullified the Word of God must be disregarded as false doctine. In otherwords, he rejected Pharisaical judaism based on their lack of willingness to hold the Word of God as authoritative. So, as a Bible-believing Christian, I have to do that also. And since Jesus and the Apostles did not actively teach about Pergatory, then I have to call the entire idea into question!
Furthermore, the truth is that what Jesus and the Apostles did teach about the afterlife gives no room for the idea of pergatory.
You said: >>but if those who reject it are aware that it comes from Judaism and what are their stand on this point.
Here is the problem with this line of thinking: yes, there are many Christians who like to look at Rabbis and try to understand what they taught. I know one prominent Bible expositor who does this regularly. It can be helpful, because it helps to understand how Rabbinical Judaism operated and what they thought.
But, we must always take our guidance and lead from Jesus. Because many times, while Jesus did live under the Torah and within that culture, he condemned the Rabbis. He did not accept their methods and he did not accept their teachings, when those teachings deviated from Scripture. Just look through Matthew and Luke – it's clear that he was on a crusade to contradict them. He even told his disciples to do what they taught from the Torah, but to disregard what they practiced (from traditions).
Consider these scriptures:
“So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.” (2 Corinthians 5:6-8)
“You will guide me with Your counsel, And afterward receive me to glory.” (Psalm 73:24)
“...And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” (Acts 7:59)
“...Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.” (John 5:24)
“...For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ...” (1 Thessalonians 5:9)
These scriptures are just a few verses representing this truth; that God has given us salvation in a fulfilled sense. Not by half measure, not with some later purging process needed. Salvation is completed in Christ. We repeatedly see that God is saying that those who are In Christ already possess eternal life and salvation; they are not subject to wrath or judgment, because they already posses the righteousness of Christ and do not suffer judgment - because Christ has already suffered judgment on our behalf.
So, therefore the entire doctrine of Purgatory, as taught by Roman Catholicism is suspect. Furthermore, saying that it is an earlier doctrine of Orthodox (Pharisaical) Judaism is to say nothing more than this: the guys who were wrong about the Savior, were also wrong about the means of both justification and salvation. That is not surprising.
The fact that Jesus used the term Gehenna, in his teaching, needs to be seen in light of the fact that he was correcting the views of the Pharisees on this topic and in that light a good student would research what Jesus actually said on that topic. In my mind, it leaves no one thinking that Gehenna is some termporary place of purging of sins, but instead is the destination of those who have not received salvation.
Therefore, I cannot accept this doctrine. It's purpose seems to empower a hierarchical institution and to diminish the authority and sufficiency of Christ. That is an affront to God.
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