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Is Obedience to God necessary for salvation?
I like to read all the replies here, they are very insightful and thoughtful.
The reason for this question, is that I've read more than one reply that states that there is nothing left for us to do regarding salvation. Is this biblical?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by thewatchman on
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Please Pardon Me for intercepting.....but works that flow from salvation ARE proof of the fruit, correct? We are not obedient to BE saved, but because we understand the depth of defiance. But without obedience, as stated throughout the entire Bible, states quite clearly that we will not be saved. There is a cost....
I hate that this is even a debate, because quite frankly, I find it repulsive that people are still trying to find ways in which they can cling to in sin....and it'll be alright. It's not alright, David, Moses, Peter, all of them understood the cost.
Frightening, quite frankly that so many hold this thought. We aren't claiming that this will make you saved, but you will not be saved without obedience...and it ain't because of you. None of us could be saved if not by the blood of the Lamb, Jesus, the perfect one. But once saved or your interpretation of being saved, is not without the Word....and the Word declares those that are saved, those who love the Lord, and those who obey and are true disciples of the Lord.
Who's so protective of sin? satan is. Who's willing to say it's acceptable in a Godly life....satan is. Who's willing to tell you that eating the fruit of the tree is okay and it will only give you more understanding? satan is. satan wants you to believe that sin is okay and not harmful. Whom do you believe? The Lord or satan. Who are you willing to take a chance on, the Lord or satan. You believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, the answer is simple....live like Him, obey Him, adore Him and LOVE HIM! If you want to know what that love entails...open the Bible and read what He says about loving HIM.
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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I cannot speak for everyone, but I can assuredly tell you that I am not attempting to protect sin! It is a big deal as to what we understand Scripture teaches about works and fruit. Good works and fruit CANNOT PRECEDE salvation ... not possible, unacceptable to God! It is only the redeemed who can, and must, follow up that wonderful transformation with good works that produce fruit. If at anytime we put works as the condition instead of the evidence of salvation we have TURNED INTO A WORKS BASED SALVATION ... NO WAY AROUND THAT! One cannot say it is salvation by grace but only available if you work for it or work hard to retain it. I do not believe most people truly understand the transformation that God speaks of in Scripture that takes place when we are born again spiritually. This new life, if truly new life, will produce fruit, but the salvation was not contingent on the fruit, but rather ... the last time I am going to say this in this thread because I grow tired of the same old same old ... the fruit will flow from that new life because that is what true children of God will do because they are children of God. I will add one more thing ... You think I am making excuses for sin, just the opposite! I put a high value on salvation and who is really saved. If we were able to compare views clearly I guarantee you that you think more people are saved than I do. I believe there are many (most) who are deceived and think they are saved, but are not and are the ones who will one day experience a Matthew 7 moment. That breaks my heart, but the reality is that there is a teaching out here that is all about easy believism ... that is a false doctrine. Salvation by grace alone is a great work of God that brings true transformation, new life, an actual change ...I am convinced most who think they are saved have not been born again, but telling them if they work hard they will be saved does nothing to bring about the transformation ... it only teaches religion that is empty. The true child of God does not have to be told to do good works ... he/she will live as a child of God and do that which is now natural to the new spirit that is ALIVE WITHIN, understanding that there is a life long battle with the flesh, but the child of God will always overcome because of He who is in us is greater than he who is in the world.
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Permalink Reply by Jon Houser on
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The moment we become a child of God. That is when the Holy Spirit transforms us and indwells us.
But when is it that we become the child of God? Is it simple belief that makes us a child of God? Is it praying a prayer asking God to "come into our heart"? Or is it when we are obedient to Him. Matt 12:50 says that "whoever does the will of My Father is my brother, and sister, and mother." I have listed here many times at least 4 things that Scripture says lead to salvation. That means that those thing have to come first; before we are counted as Jesus' brothers and sisters.
I am not trying to say that we can earn salvation. We cannot. Nothing we can do will earn even a "thank you" from God. Read Luke 17:6-10. Jesus says here that an obedient servant is not even worthy of a thank you, because his duty is to do the will of his master. But we are told elsewhere that a servant who does not do the will of him master is wicked, and will be condemned. So it is our duty to do what is commanded of us. And He has promised that if we do what He has commanded, He will give us blessings and gifts, even though we don't deserve them.
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The moment you attach works to receiving or retaining salvation you have made it about earning salvation. It really is that simple. There is no disagreement that one must/will produce fruit if they are a child of God. The emphasis remains on the view that YOU MUST DO SOMETHING TO TO EARN (KEEP) HIS FAVOR.
We become a child of God when the Holy Spirit transforms us from being spiritually dead to spiritually alive. Some believe this work is all God's, others that we must receive Him. Either way it is not based on doing good works (or works of obedience) leading up to a point, but rather a time when we surrender to God knowing how sinful we are and in need of a Savior.
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Also, there is a difference between good works and work of obedience. Repenting, Confessing Jesus name, being baptized; these are not good works. They don't benefit the poor. They don't fill a hungering persons belly. They don't warm the cold, homeless person. Those would be good works. Those would be things that (if they could) would earn our way toward Heaven. But they cannot!!!!
Works of obedience are not good works. They can come before salvation, because they are the evidence of our faith, and it is through faith that we are saved, not before faith. And we have demonstrated before that faith includes works of obedience.
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There is a huge difference between being obedient to a code and obedient to the living God. One cannot live to please God until they have faith, and this faith is not simply easy believism, but a faith that is wrought in the transformation of one being changed from spiritually dead to spiritually alive. Dead vessels produce nothing of value ... only the living (spiritually alive) can do that.
Again we simply are going in circles ....
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LT,
I shake the dust of your house off my feet. I will move on to where the soil is more fertile.
I would love to be able to bless you with God's speed, but we are told that to do so would make me a partaker of your evil and rebellion. I pray that God will open your heart before it is too late.
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Permalink Reply by Seek on
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2 Corinthians 12:7
...Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. -
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Hi Seek,
I'm not quite sure I'm understanding why you posted this verse? Could you please expound on it?
2 Corinthians 12:7
...Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.Philippians 2:12 states:
So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
tp://www.truthaccordingtoscripture.com/documents/books/counterfeit-cross/examine-yourselves.php#.V_WihOArLIU
I think it's Biblically legitimate to state that we must obey the Lord Jesus Christ and abstain from sin. The whole entire Bible is filled with righteousness vs. evil. In it's entirety, it's filled with disobedient/obedient, righteousness/unrighteousness, heaven/hell, those who serve the Lord and those who don't, there is quite frankly no reserved definition for those on the fence and who don't obey. I encourage you to read the article that I posted if you please, if you do not, no worries.
I know that all I can do is to provide information for you and let you make your own decision about the life lived for the Lord God. The Bible and the Holy Spirit are the best witnesses to convince anyone as to the imperitive command to obedience. Posting specific [namely 2 verses] to proclaim your right to your sin is in essence a de-emphasis on all that Christ Jesus has done. He took all of our punishment to save us from our sin....not IN our sin. Am I proclaiming that I have never sinned, absolutely not, all of us have sinned and fallen short, but to peddle the fable that none of us can live a holy life, is to devalue and discredit the Truth of the Bible. I, personally, do not believe a God who asks of us, things that He would not give us the ability to do as long as we are abiding in Him to fail. It is work, no matter what anyone says, it's work....it's often hard to go against the grain, but everything is possible with God and nothing, no one, anything will ever deter me from believing it.
I love you, build on a good foundation....not sinking sand that will cause less work.
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Permalink Reply by Tammy on
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She posted it because of what Jon said to LT about Jon shaking the dust off of his feet & hoping LT would find out the truth before it was too late & that he wished he could bless him but God wouldn't have him be rebellious or evil.
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She posted it because of what Jon said to LT about Jon shaking the dust off of his feet & hoping LT would find out the truth before it was too late & that he wished he could bless him but God wouldn't have him be rebellious or evil.
Thanks Tammy, but I'm still not sure I find the connection?
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