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Is Obedience to God necessary for salvation?

I like to read all the replies here, they are very insightful and thoughtful.  

The reason for this question, is that I've read more than one reply that states that there is nothing left for us to do regarding salvation.  Is this biblical?  

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on September 27, 2016 at 2:53pm

Jon,

Before I even respond to this I am going to ask you to reread what you wrote in the last two replies and be sure that you really understand what you are saying and that you really mean what is written there ... I really do not think you realize how disjointed your beliefs are ... they are not coherent, nor in alignment with Scripture.

Permalink Reply by Jon Houser on September 27, 2016 at 7:27pm

I have reread what I wrote, and I have reread Acts 7 and 8.  I will try to be more clear in what I believe this passage means.  The Church was scattered from Jerusalem due to the persecution by the Sanhedrin following the stoning of Stephen at the end of chapter 7.  As they fled, they preached the Gospel everywhere they went.  Philip went through Samaria and came to a certain city. There he preached, the people believed, and were baptized in chapter 8 verse 12. By any interpretation (that I have ever heard) of the written Scriptures, their sins were forgiven and they were saved somewhere in that process.  

Why the Spirit was withheld from them, I don't know. I do know is that the Spirit is promised to indwell us, and He comes on us after baptism (Acts 2:38). How much after? Scripture does not say that I have ever noticed.  Today I believe He comes to us immediately, but here at the beginning of the Church, I cannot say what God's reasons were for withholding Him.

It could be as I said, that God did not want Simon the Sorcerer to be able to influence the young Church.  Or maybe He wanted to have the occasion to reveal the sin of trying to buy the Spirit.  It could have been so that the Apostles could see, and be a part of, the Spirit being poured out on someone outside of the Jewish nation (just as happened with the conversion of Cornelius).  It could have been done simply to be a stumbling block in the hearts of people today.  I don't know.

What I do know is that it is not relevant to us today. We do not have to wait on the Spirit to come on us today, because we are not living in the transition period from the days of the Jews to the days of the Church.  Most of the things written in Acts are there as examples for us to live by today.  But this appears to be a unique situation.  It never happens again, and usually things are repeated if they are significant.  The only thing repeated here, is Peter's presence at the Spirit being poured out on a different group of people from the Jews.

Permalink Reply by JB on September 27, 2016 at 9:03am

Also, we do not have the "miraculous" power of the Holy Spirit today.  The need for that (and the ability) expired with the death of the last Apostle (John). 

You Sound like a Baptist friend of mine.

You are not reading the same bible that I am. I have seen too much for someone to tell me that the Holy Spirit is not in us today, and working in the believer to bring about the will of God.

How did my granddaughter raise up to life again after drowning in our pool? How did I swallow a sore throat, “that hurt so bad I could hardly swallow” by cursing the root of it, “instantly” gone, and has never returned in maybe at least 10 years? How did I get healed from a fever blister that would come in my lip every now and then, that started in my lower right side of my chin, and work its way up to come to a head after about a week of maturing from the start, healed and has never returned? And by the grace of God it never will, I praise God every day for His Word, His exceedingly great and precious promises, for every breath of air I breathe, for every heart beat, for His Love and Mercy, for calling me into fellowship with His Son Jesus Christ the righteous, and I am in Him and He is in me.

You can peddle your disbelief somewhere else, but not with me.  So don’t come off with your intellectual, religious beliefs with someone that has studied the Word of God, which has built my faith to the point that I can trust Him to do what He has promised, like laying hands on the sick and seeing them recover, etc., and have experienced the power of God working throughout my life, I was born again at a very young age, and now will be 86 in June. So my friend, you are a little too late to try to teach that nonsense to me.

You have a form of godliness, but you are denying the power thereof.

 2 Ti. 3:5  
   Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Therefore, this will be my last response to you.

May you find truth, as you study God’s Word, and let the Holy Spirit teach you, not man.

As I said before, 1Cor.2, the natural man, “which seems you are trying to understand with”

 1 Corinthians 2:9-16 (KJV)
9  But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10  But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11  For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12  Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15  But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16  For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Permalink Reply by Seek on September 28, 2016 at 4:29am
I've seen God work miracles as well. I've seen things the Spirit has given me that came to pass quickly and in such a way that no one could write them off as coincidence.

The Spirit is at work just as much today as it ever was. It's people And lack of faith in miracles that is the problem.

"....if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”
Permalink Reply by Seek on September 26, 2016 at 3:54am

If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

God does not work by human concept. 

Since God weighs the heart, is the heart of this murderer right if he is saved and still murdering? Was the murder a momentary rage like that of Moses, who was trying to do right but failed. We're told to obey the laws of the land and there are consequences if not. But just as Christ is to us, so too is the lawbreakers lawyer who gets him acquitted on a technicality. 

Permalink Reply by Jon Houser on October 3, 2016 at 2:54pm

We are not gotten off "on a technicality".  Our advocate died so that we could be washed in His Blood.  I told you in my analogy, that it broke down because I couldn't change the murderer's heart.  But that doesn't change the fact that God places conditions on salvation that are our duty to Him to do.  Luke 17:6-10 says that a servant is not even worthy of a "thank you" when they do what they are told.  But they are wicked if they don't do what they are told.  How much more than are we bound to do the will of our Lord and Master when He tells us to "Repent and be baptized for the remission of our sins."?  If we do His will, he promises us grace (gifts we don't deserve), but if we don't do His will, he promises us Hell!

Permalink Reply by Seek on October 4, 2016 at 8:09pm
1 John 1:8
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Since ALL have sinned and sin is in us...even after repentance sin is still there...based on your criteria, even you are going to hell with the rest of us. No one is going to heaven. We can't, because sin lives in us. We'll never perfectly follow everything you think is required. Therefore Jesus had no need to die.

I hate that He had to go through what He did, but since He could willingly do so, that shows me how much He loves all of us. Love doesn't live by rules. We can have love for one another and yet be angry for a moment. And whoever is angry has committed murder in his heart. You ever been angry? Thank God for sendingHis Son. Thank Jesus for His voluntary sacrifice. Thank Him for being your lawyer/advocate. Without Him loving us enough to accept us and standing before the Father on our behalf, none of us could ever see life
Permalink Reply by Jon Houser on September 26, 2016 at 7:23am
LT,
I apologize if I misunderstood what you said. I am not attempting to twist your words, I am restating what I understand you to be saying. If I get it wrong, please correct my understanding of what you are really trying to say.

What I understood you to say was that we do not have the power to turn from our sins because we are stuck in the sinful nature. That because of that sinful nature, it is not possible for us to seek God, nor to repent on our own. That the Holy Spirit must work in us to cause us to repent.

Repentance is a changing of our mind away from following the sinful nature to chasing after God and His commands. It is an act that we continually have to make, because "sin does so easily beset us."

Faith IS a tangible thing. That is what Hebrews 11:1 says. James corroborates this when he says that without the actions we put to it, faith is dead. You are right, that if there is no good works, there is no faith at all, it is dead. Dead faith is no good to anyone, therefore the actions we do are the life of our faith. And faith (with the actions included in it) precede salvation, they don't proceed from it.

Yes, us saying Jesus is God does not make it so. It is so, and so we must say it. But what I heard you say was that we can only say that after we are saved, which is a false statement. So if I misunderstood, please forgive me.

It is very clear from some of the letters, that the Churches shared the letters Paul wrote to them, and passed copies of them from town to town. If you read Ephesians 2 and Colossians 2, they are almost mirrors of each other. Eph 2 mentions only grace and faith in connection with salvation (but does mention baptism 2 chapters later), while Col 2 talks about baptism and being resurrected by faith. Does this apparent discrepancy negate those verses from being legitimate Scripture? No, because Scripture does not contradict Scripture. Therefore, both must be accurate and legitimate. But they were directed at a different audiences who needed to hear different messages at the time. Later, they would have had both messages, as we do today, and could put them together to see the fuller picture.

I have never heard of the C&MA, but that is not very strange, because I don't really care about congregational labels. I look at the adherence to Scriptural principles in salvation issues. Everything outside of that core, like you said, are secondary issues. I have left congregations whose leadership decided to leave the truth of those core salvation issues, but have remained a member of congregations who changed some of those secondary issues even if I disagreed with their new position. Because God calls us to unity, for he said in Eph 4:3-6, "Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

I asked before of someone else, but why is baptism listed among this august list of "One"s? One body (the Church), One Spirit (Holy Spirit), One Hope (Jesus Blood), One Lord (Jesus), One Faith, One Baptism (why?), One God and Father of All (the Father). I believe it is listed here for two reasons. One, to say that the baptism of the Holy Spirit like on Pentecost and on Cornelius were unique events, and would not be a common occurrence in the Church. Two, to show the significance of baptism.

I now ask you, in what way could baptism come after salvation given Col 2:11-13 and Romans 6:3-5. I know that elsewhere it is written about faith, and belief, but in these two places we are told that in baptism our sins are buried with Him (Jesus) and we arise in resurrection to a new life. I read that to say that the old does not die until baptism. Our sins are not washed away until we are immersed. We are dead already in our trespasses and sin, but we are buried with Christ in baptism, and then resurrected with Him as we come out of the water. How is that misreading those two verses?

I can hear you now saying that I am taking only these two verses and making my theology out of them. I am not. The water has no power. It is Jesus Blood and His sacrifice that does all the work. But these two verses cannot be ignored either. Jesus paid the price for our sins, and it is in likeness of His resurrection that baptism resurrects us. But these two verses put a timeline on that resurrection. In baptism.
Permalink Reply by Leonard T on September 26, 2016 at 3:16pm

I apologize if I misunderstood what you said. I am not attempting to twist your words, I am restating what I understand you to be saying. If I get it wrong, please correct my understanding of what you are really trying to say.


What I understood you to say was that we do not have the power to turn from our sins because we are stuck in the sinful nature. That because of that sinful nature, it is not possible for us to seek God, nor to repent on our own. That the Holy Spirit must work in us to cause us to repent.
The Holy Spirit does not cause us to repent, but apart from His work that leads us to repentance we would not be able to repent. We do not have the ability to believe in God until we have received sufficient illumination. The Bible tells us that no one seeks God, no not one.


Repentance is a changing of our mind away from following the sinful nature to chasing after God and His commands. It is an act that we continually have to make, because "sin does so easily beset us."
It is a choice, but one that is only possible after the Holy Spirit has illuminated us as already stated. You did not have in you the ability to choose God when you were in the spiritually dead state. This is a basic truth found in Scripture.


Faith IS a tangible thing. That is what Hebrews 11:1 says. James corroborates this when he says that without the actions we put to it, faith is dead.

James says in 2:18 that he will show his faith by what he does. He will show his faith “by” what he does. His faith is demonstrated by what he does. His faith is real and because of his faith he does these things … pretty clear. Actions flow from the faith.

 

You are right, that if there is no good works, there is no faith at all, it is dead. Dead faith is no good to anyone, therefore the actions we do are the life of our faith. And faith (with the actions included in it) precede salvation, they don't proceed from it.
Wrong. We can go in circles on this all day. The actions flow from the faith.


Yes, us saying Jesus is God does not make it so. It is so, and so we must say it. But what I heard you say was that we can only say that after we are saved, which is a false statement. So if I misunderstood, please forgive me.
Saying does not make us saved. It is because of the work of the Spirit of God that we can say this. It does not bring salvation it too flows from the work of salvation in us through the repentance process. It is interesting to listen to you. Have you ever taken the time to build your check list of salvation?

Let’s see what I have from you thus far:

1)       I must believe.

2)      I must do good works.

3)      I must be baptized by immersion.

4)      I must confess out loud Jesus is Lord.

 

What have I missed from your check list?


It is very clear from some of the letters, that the Churches shared the letters Paul wrote to them, and passed copies of them from town to town. If you read Ephesians 2 and Colossians 2, they are almost mirrors of each other.

You assume all read the letters. What if they hadn’t? What if it took a year for the letters to circulate … poor soul that didn’t get to read the letter before he died?

 

Eph 2 mentions only grace and faith in connection with salvation (but does mention baptism 2 chapters later),

You consider that mentioning a comprehensive description?

 

while Col 2 talks about baptism and being resurrected by faith. Does this apparent discrepancy negate those verses from being legitimate Scripture? No, because Scripture does not contradict Scripture. Therefore, both must be accurate and legitimate. But they were directed at a different audiences who needed to hear different messages at the time. Later, they would have had both messages, as we do today, and could put them together to see the fuller picture.
Poor soul in the meantime based on your view that did not realize unless he was baptized he was lost to hell forever. Again, you reject baptism of the Holy Spirit except for two instances, but you cannot prove that to be the case beyond your opinion. Yet, we know that there is a baptism by water and a baptism by the Holy Spirit described in Scripture. There is no sense in me trying to convince you otherwise for you are convinced that the Spirit baptism ceased.


I have never heard of the C&MA, but that is not very strange, because I don't really care about congregational labels. I look at the adherence to Scriptural principles in salvation issues.

I am not into labels either. I only responded to your question, otherwise it would have never come up.

 

Everything outside of that core, like you said, are secondary issues. I have left congregations whose leadership decided to leave the truth of those core salvation issues, but have remained a member of congregations who changed some of those secondary issues even if I disagreed with their new position. Because God calls us to unity, for he said in Eph 4:3-6, "Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."
Understood.


I asked before of someone else, but why is baptism listed among this august list of "One"s? One body (the Church), One Spirit (Holy Spirit), One Hope (Jesus Blood), One Lord (Jesus), One Faith, One Baptism (why?), One God and Father of All (the Father). I believe it is listed here for two reasons. One, to say that the baptism of the Holy Spirit like on Pentecost and on Cornelius were unique events, and would not be a common occurrence in the Church. Two, to show the significance of baptism.
You are free to believe that. We disagree.


I now ask you, in what way could baptism come after salvation given Col 2:11-13 and Romans 6:3-5. I know that elsewhere it is written about faith, and belief, but in these two places we are told that in baptism our sins are buried with Him (Jesus) and we arise in resurrection to a new life. I read that to say that the old does not die until baptism. Our sins are not washed away until we are immersed. We are dead already in our trespasses and sin, but we are buried with Christ in baptism, and then resurrected with Him as we come out of the water. How is that misreading those two verses?
Colossians 2:11 refers to spiritual circumcision, not physical. Thus, verse 12 is referring to that which is spiritually done as well, that which you reject … spirit baptism. Thus, let me ask, does verse 11 refer to a spiritual circumcision or the physical? If spiritual how do you reconcile that we change from spiritual to physical? What baptism is truly being spoken of in Romans 6? What does it mean to be baptized “into Christ Jesus”?


I can hear you now saying that I am taking only these two verses and making my theology out of them. I am not. The water has no power. It is Jesus Blood and His sacrifice that does all the work. But these two verses cannot be ignored either. Jesus paid the price for our sins, and it is in likeness of His resurrection that baptism resurrects us. But these two verses put a timeline on that resurrection. In baptism.

Nothing to respond to.

Permalink Reply by Jon Houser on September 28, 2016 at 8:37am
The Holy Spirit does not cause us to repent, but apart from His work that leads us to repentance we would not be able to repent. We do not have the ability to believe in God until we have received sufficient illumination. The Bible tells us that no one seeks God, no not one. 
It is a choice, but one that is only possible after the Holy Spirit has illuminated us as already stated. You did not have in you the ability to choose God when you were in the spiritually dead state. This is a basic truth found in Scripture.  
I am sorry for not understanding, but would you mind clarifying for me at what point in this process do you believe the Bible says we are saved?  When we first hear the word?  After we believe it?  When we have confessed His Name?  When we have prayed for Jesus to come into our heart?  How much obedience is required (or how little)? 
James says in 2:18 that he will show his faith by what he does. He will show his faith “by” what he does. His faith is demonstrated by what he does. His faith is real and because of his faith he does these things … pretty clear. Actions flow from the faith.
Now we are getting somewhere.  Faith is demonstrated by the things we do; it is inseparable from actions.  But without those actions, it is dead.  Dead things cannot bring life.  And that living faith leads to the forgiveness of sins ("saved by grace through faith").  Thus the actions taken as a part of faith lead to the forgiveness of sins, and bring salvation. 
Wrong. We can go in circles on this all day. The actions flow from the faith.
Yes, the actions flow from faith, but James says in 2:17, "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."  We cannot go in circles on this all day if we let the Scriptures have the deciding vote (not that my vote counts for a hill of beans, or yours either for that matter).  I wouldn't see it as a breach of the spirit of the Word to say in Eph 2:8, "For by grace are ye saved through [living] faith..." Because a dead faith cannot save us.  What is a living faith, one that includes actions.  What actions? Obedience to the commands of God.  Faith leads to salvation; we are saved through it, not by it.  (I am not saying you said we are saved by faith, just making a point).
Saying does not make us saved. It is because of the work of the Spirit of God that we can say this. It does not bring salvation it too flows from the work of salvation in us through the repentance process. It is interesting to listen to you. Have you ever taken the time to build your check list of salvation?
There are many more verses that say the same things as these, but let me list for you just some of the verses that the Bible says lead to salvation:
Romans 5:1-2 - declared righteous by faith, we have access to grace through faith
John 3:16 - Belief leads to everlasting life.
2 Cor 7:10 - Godly sorrow leads to repentance which leads to salvation
Matt 10:32 - If you confess Jesus before men, He will confess you before the Father
1 Peter 3:21 - Baptism saves us the same way the flood saved Noah, through faith
Romans 10:9-10 - Confess with mouth, and believe in heart, you will be saved
Mark 16:16 - If you believe and are baptized, you will be saved. If you don't believe, you will be condemned
Acts 2:38 - Repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins.
There are at least these four things that Scripture says lead to salvation, and none of the verses say "Only this" will give you salvation.  Now, given the inerrancy of Scripture, there can be no conflict between these, so all of them must be correct, and all of them say that these acts precedes salvation.
You assume all read the letters. What if they hadn’t? What if it took a year for the letters to circulate … poor soul that didn’t get to read the letter before he died?
I assume that Paul, and the other Apostles, taught them the full truth when they were with them.  The letters were to reinforce, clarify, and strengthen, the message they had preached in person, and correct the people there.  We today need all the letters put together to tell us the full truth that the Apostles knew, because we don't have them here to preach directly to us.
You consider that mentioning a comprehensive description?
I consider grace comprehensive.  But I don't consider this verse comprehensive in telling us what is included in faith that leads to salvation.
Again, you reject baptism of the Holy Spirit except for two instances, but you cannot prove that to be the case beyond your opinion. Yet, we know that there is a baptism by water and a baptism by the Holy Spirit described in Scripture. There is no sense in me trying to convince you otherwise for you are convinced that the Spirit baptism ceased.
I don't reject the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.  I know that the Spirit resides within me and all others who are Christian.  But people today speak of there being a baptism of the Holy Spirit today like there was in these two instances.  There cannot be that and the water baptism, because Eph 4:5 tells us that there is only one baptism.  There are many instances of water baptism, but only these two special cases of Holy Spirit baptism in the New Testament.  Therefore, I believe that the "one baptism" is that of water as mentioned in Rom 6:4.  The Holy Spirit does enter us, and live in us (I believe at baptism
Colossians 2:11 refers to spiritual circumcision, not physical. Thus, verse 12 is referring to that which is spiritually done as well, that which you reject … spirit baptism. Thus, let me ask, does verse 11 refer to a spiritual circumcision or the physical? If spiritual how do you reconcile that we change from spiritual to physical? What baptism is truly being spoken of in Romans 6? What does it mean to be baptized “into Christ Jesus”?
Colossians 2:11 does indeed refer to spiritual circumcision, and the resurrection spoken of in verse 12 is spiritual because we do not physically die in baptism.  But, the baptism is physical.  As I said above, there is only one baptism, and it is physical.
Permalink Reply by thewatchman on October 1, 2016 at 7:22pm

That is a good question Jon, i.e. how much obedience is required?  Because I've been asked time after time how much can we sin before not being saved and how much do I sin each day......is this the quota for the normal living Christian life?  

I suppose we will all find out when we are faced with the Great Lord Almighty.

Matthew 7:21 --Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 7:14--14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on October 1, 2016 at 8:24pm

I am sorry for not understanding, but would you mind clarifying for me at what point in this process do you believe the Bible says we are saved?

The moment we become a child of God. That is when the Holy Spirit transforms us and indwells us.

 

I have no desire to continue the same old debate. You put works before salvation and make it a works based salvation. I see Scripture teaching us that works flow from salvation, because we are saved. 

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