Is It Proper for non-catholic Christians to Attend Catholic Baptisms?

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Permalink Reply by Sharon Theresa Theil on March 29, 2010 at 2:31pm

Ron, This is kind of long but I thought it best to include what I was responding to as well as my response just to keep everything from getting any more confusing!

Hi Sharon,
Of course Jesus ate with Tax Collectors and sinners, just as I do with non believers, Anglicans, Catholics and Sinners But do you believe that Jesus would accompany sinners to a brothel?

Well, I’m not sure that attending a Baptism with a friend of 20 years is the same as ‘accompany sinners to a brothel’. Of course, I have never been to a brothal so I wouldn't know;)

But similar to my close and dear friend, an Alcoholic; - whom I witness to at every opportunity - who asks me to join him and go down to the pub and join him for a drink, I decline. Going with him approves what he is doing. My other close friend, - to whom I also witness at every opportunity - knows what I stand for and accepts it.

I am not sure but I think there is an insult in there somewhere…but, I’m not easily insulted so, I will try to unpack this further…

Keep in mind that just as your attendance at a wedding shows your approval of the match, so too your attendance at a Christening lends your approval.

OK. I’ll buy that.


One has to make a stand. What good is it to say that you believe that the Bible is God's very Word and instruction on what he expects from you; when by your attendance in the pub or at a Babies Christening, be basically approving of that which is not what God instructed?


What part of the Bible speaks about attendance in the pub or at a baby’s christening?


Would you attend if a very close and dear friend invited you to his initiation into witchcraft? (This is rife in South Africa)

No. But there is no connection between Baptism and witchcraft.



Regarding the Theological stance on Baptism, the act of Baptism is always represented as being immersed.

So?


A) "And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much
water there: and they came, and were baptized (immersed Grk Baptizo) Joh 3:23.

B) "And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip
and the eunuch; and he baptized (immersed Grk Baptizo) him. Acts 8:38.

C) "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism (immersion Grk Baptizmatos) into death: that like as
Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in
newness of life. Rom 6:4

Most Churches that Christen babies believe in the doctrine of Baptismal regeneration. I know because I was Christened and finally confirmed at an older age. Let's walk through the rites of confirmation.

Priest: "What is you name?"
Child : Ron.
Priest: "Who gave you this name?" (Now comes the punch line next.)
Child: My God Father and God mother at my baptism, where in I was made a child of God.

Believe me; after the christening and then at a later age, confirmation, I was as much a Christian child of God as the heathen who polished the Churches floors. In fact all that the confirmation did for me was to make me a "Confirmed sinner."

Why would a heathen polish the Church's floors? Anyway, I digress. I’m sorry that you believe this but I certainly don’t see any reason for your beliefs within the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Seriously and for my own benefit Sharon, if you would tell me how and in what way I do not understand or misinterpret Catholic Doctrine? I need to know, because I do not wish to offend anyone

Sure,

You wrote; “The God parents who may not be Christians themselves, take an oath to bring the child up in a manner that complies with the Christian faith. Despite the fact that they themselves may not”

From the Catholic Encyclopedia: When infants are solemnly baptized, persons assist at the ceremony to make profession of the faith in the child's name. This practice comes from antiquity and is witnessed to by Tertullian, St. Basil, St. Augustine, and others. Such persons are designated sponsores, offerentes, susceptores, fidejussores, and patrini. The English term is godfather and godmother, or in Anglo-Saxon, gossip.
These sponsors, in default of the child's parents, are obliged to instruct it concerning faith and morals. One sponsor is sufficient and not more than two are allowed. In the latter case, one should be male and the other female. The object of these restrictions is the fact that the sponsor contracts a spiritual relationship to the child and its parents which would be an impediment to marriage. Sponsors must themselves be baptized persons having the use of reason and they must have been designated as sponsors by the priest or parents. During the baptism they must physically touch the child either personally or by proxy. They are required, moreover, to have the intention of really assuming the obligations of godparents.

May the Lord Bless you and keep you always!

Sharon

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on March 29, 2010 at 2:57pm

Sharon,

Here isa useful tip.

In order for us to know what Ron said and what you are saying in your response I would encourage putting Ron's words in bold. This helps a lot in this type of forum response.

Lord Bless,
LT

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Permalink Reply by Sharon Theresa Theil on March 29, 2010 at 3:34pm

LT,

Thanks!

Sharon

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Permalink Reply by Ron Payne on March 30, 2010 at 3:24am

Hi Sharon,
Thank you for your reply,

I think you misunderstood certain parts of my mail. Forgive me if I was not too clear.

The statement in my mail to you:
"But do you believe that Jesus would accompany sinners to a brothel?"

This was in reply to your statement that Jesus sat and ate with Sinners and Tax Collectors.
YES! We may certainly participate with these people and even share meals with them . BUT! Do I accompany him if invited to join him at a Brothel? The point being, Jesus was happy to mix with and share with sinners, but should they have wanted him to join in that which was obviously wrong - He certainly would have declined. Just as I also decline to approve Christening, by my attendance.

Your Question: What part of the Bible speaks about attendance in the pub or at a baby's Christening?

No where does the Bible speak of Pubs or a Christening. Again the point being made is, that If you believe that some things do not match up with scripture, such as alcoholism or Christening or a Spiritist's Seance, or devil worship, you should not attend or support it.

Your question: Why would a heathen polish the church floors anyway?
He does this simply because he is employed there, but that does not make him a Christian, just as Christening a Baby does not make the Baby a Christian.

Regarding your final words regarding the Catholic Encyclopedia.

Let me say:

YES! People may well make solemn professions of faith in the Child's name....

I would stick my neck out and say that most (if not all) of those folk who make solemn professions of faith on the baby's behalf, are not be able to keep those oaths themselves..

I might also add that even Born Again Christians would fail from time to time, simply because all of us; sadly, still continue in sin.

This does not help a child who's upbringing in the faith is dependent on on us to keep the child in the faith, by simply making solemn promises. A Child is quick to notice that Uncle John does this or that, so then why can't I.

This is why every living person is a sinner! As babies, we follow the examples of people and copy the rights and the wrongs that they do. Added to that we have the demons that encourage us in our sins

The Biblical answer to all of the above is:
Jesus said: "Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God" Luke 18:16.

On the strength of the above verse we see that Babies and children up to a certain age are not held responsible by God, for their sins. They are too young and inexperienced to be able to assess right from wrong.

But the time does come when they begin to realize that to do this or that, is a sin. It is then that they become accountable for themselves and need to turn to Christ, ask for forgiveness and accept Him as their Lord and Saviour.
But why should the grown up child do this when according to infant Christening, he or she has already been made a Child of God at the Christening?

You may add that this is the reason for the child's confirmation, in order to confirm the promises made on his/her behalf. Sadly those promises were made by other people and not by him or her. These children are still Sinners who have been led to believe that being Christened has already allowed them to enter heaven and all they have to do is accept the vows their Godparents made

One needs to know how Baptismal regeneration (The Christening of Babies) started.
If asked I will elucidate. But for the moment be it suffice to say that there is no evidence in the Bible of Babies being Christened. If it was necessary then surely there would have been instructions on Christening (sprinkling). Whereas, Baptism (Immersion) is spoken of several times.

Salvation: Salvation is a Personal thing. No one can do it for you.

Salvation is attained when we realize that we are miserable sinners in need of help and salvation.
We personally turn to God in repentance asking for forgiveness through Christ's death on the Cross
We then accept God's forgiveness by faith and accept Christ as our Lord and Saviour.

If this be a genuine repentance then the Holy Spirit will enter into our lives and we will become Born Again, saved as it becomes true children of almighty God..

After that, one displays to the world by the ceremony of Baptism, that you have "buried the Old man of sin with Christ and raised to a new life in Him." Romans 6:4.

We see then, that Christening does not fit into God's plan of Salvation.

Blessings
Ron

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Permalink Reply by Sharon Theresa Theil on March 30, 2010 at 8:01am

Ron,

Salvation is attained when we realize that we are miserable sinners in need of help and salvation.
We personally turn to God in repentance asking for forgiveness through Christ's death on the Cross
We then accept God's forgiveness by faith and accept Christ as our Lord and Saviour.

If this be a genuine repentance then the Holy Spirit will enter into our lives and we will become Born Again, saved as it becomes true children of almighty God..

So, what happens to a baby or a toddler or any child that dies before they are old enough to realize that we are miserable sinners ? What about people with mental challenges who may never be able to speak their own name let alone ask God's forgiveness by faith and accept Christ as our Lord and Saviour.

Thank you for conversing with me on such and important subject.

With Love to All,

Sharon.

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Permalink Reply by Ron Payne on March 30, 2010 at 8:24am

Hi Sharon,
Please read through my last communication to you where I gave the words of Jesus:
"Suffer the little children to come unto me, for such is the Kingdom of God."
Jesus is not asking that they be Christened or anything else... They are innocent until they come of age and accountability. From there on as they grow older, they are able to make decisions on their own, regarding whether to sin or not to sin.
Sadly like all of us they will fall into sin. It then becomes necessary for them to personally take action on their own behalf. Promises already made for them as babies count for nothing. It matters not that their god parents or the act of Christening was undertaken. They have grown up to become Sinners.
No where in Scripture has God required the act of Christening a baby..

Babies grow up and become Sinners, alienated from God and require to be personally reconciled to God through their own repentance as accountable Sinners.
Mental disorders ---- We have a God of mercy and like a baby who dies before he/she reaches an accountable age, the baby and the Mentally handicapped are accepted by God with open arms.

I am so glad that you have shown an open mind and looking for answers. Should you have more questions, it may help us both if we tackle one problem at a time, (As we have just done) then our replies will not be so lengthy
Blessings
Ron

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Permalink Reply by Sharon Theresa Theil on March 30, 2010 at 9:51pm

It then becomes necessary for them to personally take action on their own behalf. Promises already made for them as babies count for nothing.

Could you please show me from the Bible the doctrine that makes these assertions?

Blessings,

Sharon

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Permalink Reply by Chas Jones on March 29, 2010 at 9:14am

I wish to thank all who have provided their thoughts and views. I chose not to attend. While I surely may share "friendship" activities with those who do not express a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, I could not in good conscience attend what I see as a "fellowship" activity with friends where the activity is also considered by them to be a sacrament of a faith I can not share. Some who posted responses claimed Catholicism has led millions into eternal unbelief. I do not share this view and hope those who do will reconsider it.

In Christ,

Chas

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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on March 29, 2010 at 1:05pm

Chas -

I attended my cousin's Catholic wedding this weekend and as a born again Christian it was very uncomfortable for me to be in the Catholic Church surrounded by altars to Mary etc. I believe with all my heart that there are saved Catholics as there are saved Pentecostal, Reformers etc... But I disagree with many of the Catholic doctrines. Specially and primarily with the faith plus works formula for salvation/justification.

Having said all that Chas, do always as the Lord leads you. I believe you chose well friend.

The Lord bless you.

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Permalink Reply by Carla on March 29, 2010 at 2:51pm

Dear Chas,

along the same lines as a baptism...i attended a Catholic a funeral. I have 10 aunts and uncles on my mom's side alone... There are all mostly Catholic, so there will be many more coming up. So far I plan to attend each one just to show my love and support for the family who is still here.

I attended my uncles funeral a couple years ago.. It was a Catholic service. I was very uncomfortable....similarly as David said..due to the idolatry worship that occurs there...

I attended because it was family...and i wanted to be there for them. I did not participate in the rituals...except i did take communion. Also.. when it was time to sing.. I sang loudly and Praised my Lord. I also prayed that the Lord would open their eyes and their hearts.

I know some believing Catholics.. in spite of their Catholic religion, the Lord has gotten ahold of them. :).

Blessings, Carla
ps--i was raised catholic.. but in spite of my catholic upbringing, God got ahold of me also. I am no longer Catholic.. Presently I attend an anabaptist..Bretheren in Christ church.

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Permalink Reply by FRANK J BLANC0 on March 30, 2010 at 12:22pm

Chaz

It's sometimes difficult in these matters, I myself grew up has a Catholic, I was baptized as a baby, went thru catechism,has a child I had no clue what I was doing, the nuns and the Catholic church put me thru rituals and doctrines I didn't even understand, they wouldn't let me even open a bible, we were not allowed to. But eight years ago I became a born again Christian, I don't believe in baby baptism, I have a 10 month old daughter, I did have a conflict with some of my family, because some of them are Catholic, and they wanted to baptism my daughter, and I kindly explained to them that its not scripture. But I did go to Church and we dedicated our daughter to the Lord, I feel that babies are not accountable or know whats going on. As for attending, I personally would go, but I wouldn't get evolved with there rituals and idol worship. God Bless

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Permalink Reply by Sharon Theresa Theil on March 30, 2010 at 9:52pm

Amen!

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