Infant baptism

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by ScribeD on July 21, 2011 at 2:43pm

Bingo

Permalink Reply by Yael Levi-Bénédict on July 21, 2011 at 4:36pm

After death, obviously.

Before death the race is not finished yet and a soul might still receive the grace of God and  receive the light.

Permalink Reply by Richard L. Broch, Sr. on June 23, 2011 at 8:20am

Sister Rita,

 

Well said. Amen

 

Grace and Peace.

Permalink Reply by Richard L. Broch, Sr. on June 28, 2011 at 9:05am

Brother Scribe,

 

Good post. Well said.

 

Grace and Peace

Permalink Reply by kristina on July 18, 2011 at 11:19am

receive water baptism as an adult (not as baby, has no sense at all).  As baby we cannot repent and make a personal choice for JESUS right? So therefore we need to be old enough or at an age where we can make this choice.  The water baptism of a baby has no effect whatsoever, it is only tradition and a very false teaching from the priests in the Catholic church and other denominations.  Just read the bible and you will see it!

Permalink Reply by Richard L. Broch, Sr. on July 20, 2011 at 8:52am

Hey Yael,

 

Good question.

 

Are you talking about Psalm 109:31?

Or, are you referring to the Scripture covering condemnation in Romans, Chapters 5 - 6 - and  7?

 

Grace and Peace.

Permalink Reply by Yael Levi-Bénédict on July 21, 2011 at 4:34pm

Hi Richard,

 I am talking about  Psalm 49

Psalm 49:15 ¹⁵ But God will redeem me from the realm of the dead;  he will surely take me to himself.

 

I know that catholics say that once a soul is condemned to hell after death, their fate is decided and they are separated from God eternally and i wanted investigate what is the Evangelical view on the topic.

 

Yeal

Permalink Reply by Richard L. Broch, Sr. on July 21, 2011 at 6:02pm

O.K., Yael,

I see where you're coming from.

I'm not Catholic, but I believe once a person passes from this life his/her eternity is set.

Actually, the Catholics drag in the concept of Purgatory, whereby a change of status with God could be made possible. No way can I support this belief, because - (Hebrews 9:27, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment."............ So much for Purgatory....... and re-incarnation.

 

Yael, I believe what the Psalmist was saying in 49:15 descibes what the process was in Old Testament times when a godly person died. Since Jesus had not made atonement for sin yet, these souls had to hang out someplace until it was time.

That brings us to Luke 16:19-31, Jesus' parable, that I believe was an explanation of what was really happening in those times. Verse 22: "And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried."

The two went to two different places, evidentally in the same area because the rich man could see the other guy. But, the beggar was in Paradise while the rich man was suffering.

 

So then, we go to II Peter 4:6, " For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

I believe these godly people that died before Jesus came, are the ones described in Ephesians, Chapter 4, of Christ leading the captives (out of bondage, Isaiah 61:1) to Heaven.......... And your Psalmist was one of them.

 

No, the wicked will be judged at the Great White Throne Judgment, and be moving to a much warmer climate.

 

That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.

 

Grace and Peace.

Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on July 23, 2011 at 8:44am

Richard,

I agree with your explanation regarding Psalm 49:15 and following verse references.

 

Blessings,

Rita

Permalink Reply by Yael Levi-Bénédict on July 23, 2011 at 10:52am

Hi Richard,

Thanks for your reply.

I'm not sure what to make of it myself, to be honest, I but I dont think your assertion is quite there either...

 

On another note, according to my investigation of catholic doctrines, Purgatory is not a place for souls to change their status with God. In other words, it is not a second chance for salvation. Souls that go there have been saved, but need to be perfected.

 

As far as I understand, catholics see purgatory as a place of purgation ( purification ), for they believe that although many declare faith in God, some fail to live a life that is pleasing to God and need to be purified. This lines up with what Paul says:" strive to live in peace with all men and for HOLINESS ( 'to be perfect' in some translations), without which NO one will see God. This teaching  echoes what Jesus taught: Be holy as your Father in heaven is Holy.

 

blesssings,

Yeal

 

 

 

 

Permalink Reply by Yael Levi-Bénédict on July 27, 2011 at 9:12am

Hi Amanda,

 

I had to do a bit more research to answer that, and I found that your evangelical view on what catholics believe about purgatory to be mistaken:

 

"It is as if what Christ did on the cross to purify us of our sins (forgving us and cleansing us through His shed blood and sacrifice) is not enough and we must suffer ourselves to somehow earn a purification that we do not receive simply by believing in Christ alone.

 

It seems that there is a difference in what evangelicals and catholics interprete as redemption and salvation.

 

For Catholics Christ sacrifice IS once and for all - Perpetual - that is: not a static action in a point in time but something that occured and is VALID for all time. This is Redemption. Therefore the Cruxificion was a Redemptive Sacrifice. All who believe will be saved.  Salvation, on the other hand, is a consequence of this Redemptive Sacrifice, and it comes only by the Grace of God that allows and help beliers to be obedient to the end.

 

In other words, Catholics think that Jesus' Sacrifice opened the gates of Heaven to all who believe and FOLLOW him, abiding in his words and keeping his commandments;  as opposed to believing and living according to their own agenda or will, but in accordance to what Jesus taught.

 

I trust you're familiar with those passages.... " If you love me, you will obey what I command.... John 14: 17 " or "So why do you keep calling me 'Lord, Lord!' when you don't do what I say? Luke 6:46 and so on....

 

These and other passages, according to Catholics, are the call to be obedient and act on your faith, which means: It is not enough for a Catholic only to confess Jesus as Lord and Savior, they have to act externally according to the faith they have interiorly. Again, "striving to live in peace with all men and for HOLINESS, withouth which no one will see God."

Now, many people have faith in Jesus. Catholics and non-Catholics, but NOT all succeed in being holy and doing what they are called to do and be as Christians, you just need to read the internet or go out there to see how many 'good Christians' secretly do things that are not very Christian at all...

 

I guess what I am trying to say is this, Catholics dont think for a minute that somenoe become a 'saint' ( which means holy) just because they believe in Jesus. It takes a personal commitment that can only be achieved through faith and the help of God, but also with an intense personal desire to do so, which again is our free will.

 

Thereore, purgatory is for those who believe in the redemptive sacrifice of the Cross but somehow failed to fully live by the word of God. Again, without holiness, no heaven! Purgatory, yes. Then Heaven.  Purgatory is NOT for the unbeliever who rejected God.

 

Hope that helps ( by what I mean: You dont have to believe the same thing catholics believe, but at least you will not need to repeat and teach what you think catholics believe!)

 

Yael

 

Ps. Sorry for any mistakes. I have no time to correct - edit  my post. Gotta go!

Ps. Please do not be overly concerned with my wording of this concept. I am not a catholic theologian and I might, unwillingly, have made a mistake here or there... I am just trying to get the main point across, which is : Catholics DO accept that Jesus sacrifice is  suficient to redeem all  and purgatory is not for the unrepentant  or unbeliever, but for those who believed in the Message of Jesus, but were not perfect.

Permalink Reply by Yael Levi-Bénédict on July 27, 2011 at 2:54pm

Amamda, better yet: The Vatican website - The catholic cathechism.

 

Under Profession of faith, please refer to -The final purification

 http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm

 

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

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