Infant baptism

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on July 27, 2011 at 3:34pm

Yael,

So, according to you Catholics believe in Once Saved Always Saved? For if the believer who fails to live up to the standard wil be pruified in purgatory, then they are therefore assured of salvation regardless of how they live in this life. They therefore cannot be lost. Thus, they are saved by grace alone and the works are part of the sanctification process. Thus, Purgatory, in their view, would only be necessary for the saved who fail to be sanctified in this life.

Is that your position?

LT

Permalink Reply by Yael Levi-Bénédict on July 28, 2011 at 6:43pm

Hi LT,

That is not my own position, but the Catholic teaching:

1030 ALL who DIE in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed ASSURED of their ETERNAL SALVATION; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. (Catechism of the catholic church)

Therfore, even if a believer was not yet perfected, as long as they were believers and repentant of their sins at the hour of their death, yes they will go to heaven. The difference is that Catholics believe that the 'INPERFECTED' believer will be purified before entering Heaven, while other Christians don't.

Now, I am not too familiar with the OSAS doctrine, but my understanding is that some Christians - mainly of Calvinist school - think that once they become believers they are saved and can never lose their Salvation.

This is not what Catholics believe. They belived that a Christian may fall away and go astray and for whaterver reason and never repent before they die. This would represent their rejection of God's love and mercy. In other words, they cause their own separation from God (due to their unwilliness to repent) and condemn themselves to eternal fire.

For Catholics life is a race and one won't receive their trophey before they cross the finish line, which is at the end of our earthly journey.

In this sense I think one cannot say that Catholics believe in OSAS, since they believe Salvation is a process that depends entirely on a person being open to receive God's Grace to obey e follow Jesus until the end, as opposed to it being a one time event.

God Bless,

Yael

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on July 28, 2011 at 7:35pm

Yael,

Please define what a perfect believer looks like that does not need purification from this POV and how they attain that perfection that requires nothing more.

Please define what a person looks like that is not perfected enough and need to spend time in purgatory according to this POV.

LT

Permalink Reply by Yael Levi-Bénédict on July 29, 2011 at 11:13am

Hi LT,

I think I know where you're going...

Along the same lines I think I could ask you why are we asked to keep the commandments, to be holy, to carry our cross, feed the hungry and clothe the naked, if faith in Christ is enough to take us to Heaven? Didn't his Sacrifice make up for every omission or wrong that we can possibly do? If we believe, but fail to do all those things the Lord is aking of us, what happens, what are the consequences?

Anyway, I will try to give you another insight rather than provide you with the definitions you asked.

First let me clarify that in my understanding, both orthodox and catholics do realize that only GOD can be perfectly good and holy. However, they also realize that God is just and fair, therefore he would not ask his children "to be Holy because he is Holy" (Cf Lev 11:44) if that was something impossible for us to achieve. Neither would Peter echoe these words in 1 Peter 1:15-16.

Having said that, even the great saints in the Bible, such as David and the apostle Peter, sinned against God; didn't they? So how can it be that without holiness no one will see God (Cf Heb 12: 14)?

I guess ( and this is my understanding) that the more orthodox christian's answer to this would be: Perfect Contriction, Expiation and Remission of Sins.

The Bible plainly says that "the soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezek. 18:4

It also says that, "Without shedding of blood is no remission" of sin (Heb.9:22).

Christ said before He went back to Heaven "that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem" (Luke 24:47). Therefore, blood redemption in Christ means nothing to the individual until he first repents.

Perfect Contrition - Repentance for the LOVE of GOD rather than for fear of Hell.

Isaiah speaks of it in these words,"For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones" (Isa. 57:15).

(This is a very clear concept I've seen in the lives of the so called catholic saints that I've read).

Expiation - "The idea of expiation has to do with reparation for a wrong, the satisfaction of the demands of justice through paying a penalty." To make expiation or satisfaction for a sin is to make amends or reparation for it. When someone makes reparations, he tries to repair the situation caused by his sin.

I found this catholic explanation:

Certainly when it comes to the eternal effects of our sins, only Christ can make amends or reparation. Only he was able to pay the infinite price necessary to cover our sins. We are completely unable to do so not only because we are finite creatures incapable of making an infinite satisfaction (or an infinite anything), but because everything we have was given to us by God. For us to try to satisfy God's eternal justice would be like using money we had borrowed from someone to repay what we had stolen from him. No actual satisfaction would be made (cf. Ps. 49:7-9, Job 41:11, Rom. 11:35). This does not mean we can't make amends or reparation for the temporal effects of our sins. The claim that only Christ can atone for or expiate our sins arises from a confusion about whether the temporal or the eternal dimension of our sins is being discussed. Only Christ can provide eternal satisfaction for our sins, but we can make temporal amends or reparations for them.

Proverbs 16:6 states, "By kindness and piety guilt is expiated, and by the fear of the LORD man avoids evil" Also on expiation, Exodus 30:15-16; Leviticus 17:11; Numbers 31:50

I would put it like this, in our earthly relationships whenever we hurt someone it is good to say sorry, but it is even better if we try to put things right when we can, because we are called to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. This can be done at all levels. Say that I break my neighbors window while playing ball, I can say sorry and apologize, but the right thing to do is to say sorry AND replace the window or pay for the damage. This would please my neighbor; wouldn't it? The same thing with God.

Therefore, with true contriction comes the desire to put things right, if possible. With repentance comes remission.

Remission of Sins - A completely free and undeserved gift, a newness of life which we could never earn. God grants it to us out of his mercy. As Saint Paul wrote: “It is all God’s work. It was God who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the work of handing on this reconciliation” (2 Cor. 5, 18).

Have a great day. I may not be able to log-in for a few days, so don't worry if dont reply soon.

Yael

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on July 29, 2011 at 10:17pm

Yael,

Along the same lines I think I could ask you why are we asked to keep the commandments, to be holy, to carry our cross, feed the hungry and clothe the naked, if faith in Christ is enough to take us to Heaven? Didn't his Sacrifice make up for every omission or wrong that we can possibly do? If we believe, but fail to do all those things the Lord is aking of us, what happens, what are the consequences?

Our purpose is seen in Romans 12:1-2 and Hebrews 11:6. John 6:28-29 are quite interesting as well. The consequence for the believer is seen in Hebrews 12. God applies divine discipline to His children. Man was not able to live by the commands of God in the OT nor is he able to fulfill them in the NT. We must have an eternal sin bearer as long as we live in the fallen flesh. The core of this issue revolves around what one understands what Scripture teaches takes place when a person places their faith in Jesus (note that there are various ways this could be stated, but I chose the common view for illustration purposes). Does the person accept Jesus and the only thing that happens is that their past sins are forgiven? Then God says “OK, you have a clean slate, try again ... try harder”? This is almost the same as the life of the Jews. It is no different than living under the Old Covenant. They had the “Day of Atonement” that brought national forgiveness. For most, they were guilty of sin again by the very next day. This view leaves the person cleansed at that moment but offers nothing more than the person better do better. There is no recognizable change, they are not yet members of God’s family, they have not spiritually been transformed ... they are just as pitiful as before, just currently forgive, but that status rest in them and their next action and the action after that and so-on.

We could go down many rabbit trails, but the issue will return to “What takes place at that moment in time when a person gives their heart to Jesus?” I see forgiveness and spiritual new birth, that we are indwelt with the Holy Spirit, we are sealed, marked, convicted, empowered, we become a child of God, and our citizenship is transferred from earth to heaven. This is only a few of the recognizable changes and Scripture supports each of these.

We also recognize that we start this new life as babes in Christ. This means we are weak and needy. We must be nurtured and taught. We will grow into maturity, developing in faith and growing in love. The new birth marks a journey, not a destination. This journey is assured a godly ending because it ultimately depends on Jesus, not us (Philippians 1:6). This growth process is part of the sanctification process. There are two basic facts regarding this new life. 1) We, at new birth, are as holy, just and righteous as we will ever be. The reason for this is that spiritually we are transformed and are perfected spiritually for the holiness and righteousness we possess (or that marks us) is that of Jesus Himself (Col. 1:27). This is called positional holiness. Then there is what is called experiential holiness. This is the physical life we live. Our new spirit battles against the fallen flesh the rest of our earthly life. The greatest battlefield is our mind. Our actions are determined in these battles. As we mature we will see great gains in living a life that is surrendered to Jesus seeking His will, not ours to be done.

Anyway, I will try to give you another insight rather than provide you with the definitions you asked.

I really don’t need more definitions. No disrespect, but I would like to see a working model and a Scriptural model for what you presented. We can discuss words and theories all day, but there has to be a visible application. I present to you as visible application to what I have stated are the disciples after Pentecost. We have Paul who was Saul the murderer. We have John Mark who abandoned Paul only to find after a time of maturing has become useful to Paul. God did not just forgive them and make them a little better ,,, He transformed them. This is one of the most difficult things for the religious to grasp regarding Christianity. There is a viable living relationship with the God of the universe. We do not just know about Him, He is revealed to us and we know Him. To the religious it is all about codes and law and how to live or not live. The born-again (transformed) now seek to live in order to please their Father in heaven.

First let me clarify that in my understanding, both orthodox and catholics do realize that only GOD can be perfectly good and holy. However, they also realize that God is just and fair, therefore he would not ask his children "to be Holy because he is Holy" (Cf Lev 11:44) if that was something impossible for us to achieve. Neither would Peter echoe these words in 1 Peter 1:15-16.

The problem is that people look to the external to determine if one is holy, when God looks to the heart. When God looks at the heart of the child of God He sees holiness, holiness that is imputed there through the work and presence of Jesus. This never changes.

Having said that, even the great saints in the Bible, such as David and the apostle Peter, sinned against God; didn't they? So how can it be that without holiness no one will see God (Cf Heb 12: 14)?

Read the rest of Hebrews 12, especially verses 22-24.

I guess ( and this is my understanding) that the more orthodox christian's answer to this would be: Perfect Contriction, Expiation and Remission of Sins.

The Bible plainly says that "the soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezek. 18:4

It also says that, "Without shedding of blood is no remission" of sin (Heb.9:22).

Christ said before He went back to Heaven "that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem" (Luke 24:47). Therefore, blood redemption in Christ means nothing to the individual until he first repents.

We are born under the OC and born with the sinful nature. Those who do not come to Christ and receive forgiveness will be judged under the OC, the Law. Yet, when we come to Christ we are transferred from being under the OC to NC. Many make the error of either attempting to live under the OC or blend the two covenants. This simply does not work. Thus, the soul that sinneth shall die (OC Law). Those who come to Jesus are forgiven and no longer stand condemned (Romans 8:1, John 3:16, Romans 10:9-13 – NC theology).

Expiation - "The idea of expiation has to do with reparation for a wrong, the satisfaction of the demands of justice through paying a penalty." To make expiation or satisfaction for a sin is to make amends or reparation for it. When someone makes reparations, he tries to repair the situation caused by his sin.

I found this catholic explanation:

Certainly when it comes to the eternal effects of our sins, only Christ can make amends or reparation. Only he was able to pay the infinite price necessary to cover our sins. We are completely unable to do so not only because we are finite creatures incapable of making an infinite satisfaction (or an infinite anything), but because everything we have was given to us by God. For us to try to satisfy God's eternal justice would be like using money we had borrowed from someone to repay what we had stolen from him. No actual satisfaction would be made (cf. Ps. 49:7-9, Job 41:11, Rom. 11:35). This does not mean we can't make amends or reparation for the temporal effects of our sins. The claim that only Christ can atone for or expiate our sins arises from a confusion about whether the temporal or the eternal dimension of our sins is being discussed. Only Christ can provide eternal satisfaction for our sins, but we can make temporal amends or reparations for them.

Proverbs 16:6 states, "By kindness and piety guilt is expiated, and by the fear of the LORD man avoids evil" Also on expiation, Exodus 30:15-16; Leviticus 17:11; Numbers 31:50

Here again we see a simple teaching in Scripture. Jesus is the one who paid our penalty. Positionally we are justified in Christ. There is no further sacrifice, nor action to cause or keep this justification. Experientially as we relate to others we do take the step to make amends and fix the wrong.

I would put it like this, in our earthly relationships whenever we hurt someone it is good to say sorry, but it is even better if we try to put things right when we can, because we are called to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. This can be done at all levels. Say that I break my neighbors window while playing ball, I can say sorry and apologize, but the right thing to do is to say sorry AND replace the window or pay for the damage. This would please my neighbor; wouldn't it? The same thing with God.

The statement is true, the implications are in error. It is one thing to say that we should correct in the physical realm errors when possible, and another to say that Jesus sacrifice was not sufficient to cover it unless we do such and such in each case. The two are separate issues. My child can do things that I do not condone and even make me angry, but my child will always be my child. The family name and relationship never changes. I will always be dad and they my child.

Therefore, with true contriction comes the desire to put things right, if possible. With repentance comes remission.

This is simply conviction, but not in order to stay saved or get resaved, but simply because it is the right thing to do.

Remission of Sins - A completely free and undeserved gift, a newness of life which we could never earn. God grants it to us out of his mercy. As Saint Paul wrote: “It is all God’s work. It was God who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the work of handing on this reconciliation” (2 Cor. 5, 18).

Yes, but this statement takes on different meanings depending on what a person sees taking place at the moment one gives their heart to Jesus.

Lord Bless,

LT

Permalink Reply by Yael Levi-Bénédict on July 30, 2011 at 6:31pm

LT,

I think you've misinterpreted a number of things that I said, but not only that you did not explain what happens to a believer that does not do what the Lord says.

You said that "... [it's] another [thing] to say that Jesus sacrifice was not sufficient to cover it unless we do such and such in each case."

I was hoping that my previous comments would be enough to clarify that the above statement is not a teachings of the orthodox, catholic (both in the East and the West), Russian orthodox and Coptic churches. I am sorry if my explantion still wasn't enough to clarify this for you. It seems that there is discrepancy in the interpretation of these points ( redemption, forgiveness and salvation ) amongst evangelical and conservative christians.

I guess your dificulty to see my point comes down to my question, which you have failed to answer: What happens if a person believes in Christ but fails to become holy?

I am afraid your reference to Heb 12 doesn't answer it. Indeed Paul is saying in Heb 12 that the Lord will discipline those He loves, but if you read on, you will see that the next point Paul makes is: Strive to live in peace with all men and for holiness without which no one will see God.

In effect Paul is saying, God corrects us when we fall but WE must STRIVE to BE what he expects us to BE: HOLY! This is why he disciplines us!

So, again my question is: If we have faith but never achieve true holiness, then what? Is the Bible contradictory? What if in spite all our faith we still carry on living our life as we please, not as it would please GOD? Is one's faith, regardless of one's lack of responsiveness to God's disciplining and call for holiness, enough to take them straight to heaven? I am affraid you have not answered that.

According to orthodox christians the answer would be a big YES; they would indeed be Saved, because Jesus' Sacrifice grants them the forgiveness required for them to go to Heaven if they repent before death. Nevertheless, traditional christians would add that this soul would have to be purified before entering heaven. This is because the Bible can't contradict itself, and holiness is required for us see the Lord, since nothing unclean shall enter heaven (cf rev 21:27)

In your view, as I understand it, is: "The consequence for the believer is seen in Hebrews 12". Which in effect is to say "Yes, they would still go to straight to heaven and no other consequence would apply, even if they never become truly holy because: 1- Jesus' sacrifice covers all sins. 2- They may have already received punishment through being 'disciplined' in their earthly journey (regarless of their response to God's disciplinatory punishments).

To me this is like saying, if a child misbehaves the parent will discipline them. However, regardless of they learning their lesson - and doing what they are supposed to do - or not, the father will still reward them with no further action!

Now quickly a few more points:

Old and New Covenant:

Your point about not 'blending' the two Covenants is really a serious error! For the New is the fullfilment of the Old. They must be read and interpreted together. They apply to all of us. Jesus ALWAYS spoke to his listeners using the back drop of the OC, how can we, his modern followers, ignore His references to the Old law? We cant!!! Salvation history began in the Garden of Eden.

Perfect and imperfect believers - Definition:

First you said: Please define what a perfect believer looks like [...] Please define what a person looks like that is not perfected enough [...]

When I said I wouldn't go down that road, you said: I really don't need more definitions.

Well, I am pleased that you changed your mind because I too think the bible is already full of such models, so it really isn't necessary.

Holiness:

You said: The problem is that people look to the external to determine if one is holy, when God looks to the heart.

There is no such a thing as "external holiness". I don't think for a minute that this what Lev 11:44 or Peter 1:15-16 are trying to say, and surely that's not the kind of 'holiness' that I am talking about either.

To me, whoever looks only for external signs to determine if any-one is holy is being foolish. This, however, does not mean that a truly holy person may not display external signs of an interior holiness.

All for now. I will try to come back again after the week-end!

Yael

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on July 30, 2011 at 7:51pm

To your main question. A person who comes to Christ and is born-again is made holy because Christ is holy and it is His work in us that causes that. If they walk in rebellion once born-again they face divine discipline.

LT

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on July 30, 2011 at 7:57pm

Yael,

One uses the whole of Scripture to understand God and man (His failure, need for forgiveness, etc). We see Jesus revealed in prophecy found in the OT and the fulfillment of these in the NT. There is more revealed, but this will suffice for our conversation.

We learn from the principles found in the whole of Scripture. The error is when one tries to live under both covenants at the same time. This cannot be. This is clearly outlined in Romans, Galatians and Hebrews.

LT

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on July 30, 2011 at 8:00pm

I did not change my mind. I would still like to see a working model and a Scriptural model for what you presented.

Permalink Reply by Yael Levi-Bénédict on August 2, 2011 at 8:28am

Hi LT and Rita ( reg. her post on page 18),

Oh dear, oh dear...I don’t even know where to start. I could not disagree more with some of the things you said. I think your whole understanding is so far from what I read in the Gospels that it seems to me that we are talking about two different things.

Rita, I suppose your argument is a rather common evangelical view because it does line up with what LT said about being holy because and just because one is a 'born-again' believer. It's not that I don't want to agree with the idea (in fact it is very appealing) but I cannot find any intellectual, factual or theological basis for that claim. Not in the bible, not in the writings of the early fathers.

All I see in the bible is a clear call, an exhortation - from Peter to Paul and obviously, from Jesus himself - for believers to LEAVE the ways of sin, to OBEY the commandments and KEEP and ABIDE in Jesus' words.

I see Paul exhorting Christians to STRIVE to be HOLY! I read him saying that God disciplines us so that we MAY SHARE in His holiness (Heb 12), not that He disciplines us because we are already holy.

It makes no sense to tell some-one to strive to be holy if they have already been made holy because they are born-again believers!!! Paul is saying strive for HOLINESS, not strive to believe!!

Look, when you BELIEVE in Christ, you receive the grace to become holy; you don't become holy automatically with no effort of your own!! This is why God commands: BE HOLY because I AM HOLY.

Rita, then you say:

If a person doesn't strive to regenerate his mind, he is no less saved. [...]

And: A person who has been saved has no sin to repent of because God doesn't count their sins.

These statements are sophisms that would require a much, much deeper theological debate which I am afraid cannot produce. But just for the sake of discussion, starting with the second statement:

A person who has been saved has no sin to repent of because God doesn't count their sins.

We just need to read the many testimonials of fallen away Christians, who after being baptized and lived a Christian life, still end up doing what is to be despised by God and unfit for a holy person!!! Now, I am not saying that the goodness of God will not work on such person’s life and restore them to the good path. BUT it will take their personal surrender, acceptance and WILL to let God do so. God created us in His likeness. Free will is an attribute of God; therefore it is an attribute of his children. And yes, they do have to repent in order for God to bestow forgiveness upon them, like he did with Peter when he betrayed the Lord.

If a person doesn't strive to regenerate his mind, he is no less saved. [...]

When you 'say a person who doesn’t strive to regenerate his mind, he is no less saved', in effect you are saying the opposite as Paul in Heb 12 - You are just using a different set of words to say: If a person doesn’t strive to be holy, he is no less saved!!

Now let us look at your wording: Regenerate is the same as generate again. Generate is to produce something or to bring it to existence. So, if you don't produce a new mind - supposedly a mind that is compatible with what your heart believes - you are no less saved. Is that so? So WHY on earth would any-one even bother?

Like I said to LT in my other post, repentance (contrition of heart) and a genuine desired to put on Christ is what leads a Christian to be saved at the end of their Journey! No one IS saved before they finish the race. Please reflect on this, they are not my words, they are Paul's. (One note: Only God KNOWS who is going to be saved in the end of the race. We don't! That is why we are called to hold fast to the path of Salvation, even if the way is narrow and hard).

Jesus' sacrifice opened the gates of heaven. It was his sacrifice that made it possible for all of us to have eternal life, because his blood, like the blood of the unblemished lamb of the OC, granted forgiveness for our sins. But to have that forgiveness one needs to repent and TURN away from sin or at least try his best to turn away from sin, striving all the time to be holy. That is what it means to be made holy in Jesus: to receive the grace to DESIRE TO BECOME HOLY and to be MADE CAPABLE of achieving that holiness. It is not an event it is a process!

I guess this is all my time allows me to post today. Unfortunately, unless I receive a convincing answer to my question to LT (what happens to a Christian that does not strive to be holy) it is not fruitful for me to continue debating this particular topic.

God bless you!

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on August 2, 2011 at 10:40am

Yael,

The answer is found in what takes place when a person is born-again. You simply make a blanket statement and reject that and dismiss it based on what you assume you understand to be true, when you are in error. You are looking at the limbs and ignoring the root issue. I am done here as well because you will not answer my questions that I have posed. You pick and chose the comments and questions you wish to address instead focusing on the whole subject that has been presented you.

LT

Permalink Reply by ScribeD on July 27, 2011 at 10:53am

Yael, i think you make some very interesting points here which merit deeper discussion. One of the things that keeps Catholics and Evangelicals in dialogue is that there are many points of agreement on essentials, even though there are some hotly debated areas of disagreement.

However, your discussion has become tangential to the original topic. Can I suggest that you start a new discussion, based on this new topic? I'd like to weigh in, but i don't like to deviate from the original question if it can be avoided.

It might be worth taking your statements here and pulling them almost entirely into a new topic post.

Infant baptism

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