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Infant baptism
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Permalink Reply by ScribeD on
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Sharon, you are being obtuse. I highly recommend that you read and seriously consider what David has posted below. It is truly excellent and it demonstrates how vastly far away from Scripture that Catholicism has gone.
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Permalink Reply by Yael Levi-Bénédict on
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Scribe,
As I have already proved to you, infant baptism is not about Catholicism or Orthodox christianity (as said, other protestants also baptize infants: Church of England, Sweden, to mention only a couple). In their view the fundamentalist evangelicals are off the mark, since scriptures talk about baptism of whole families, plus this IS what the early Church practiced whether you like or not!! It is provable that baptism of infants was being perfomed long before the bible come about by means of apostolic teachings! Please take another look at my comments on page 8.
Yeal
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Scribe,
I just came to think of it, since you only accept what is litterally written in the bible, can you please point out where does it say that parent cannot or should not baptize their infants?
Yael -
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Permalink Reply by Sharon Theresa Theil on
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Scribe,
When children were brought to Jesus by their parents for His blessing, the disciples tried to brush them aside (Mark 10:13-16). But Jesus said, “Permit the children to come to Me for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.”
These children included “babies” (Luke 18:15); Jesus “took them in His arms and began blessing them” (Mark 10:16).
We are saved by GRACE. Can a baby receive God's Grace? Yes.
Can God make a disciple out of a baby? Yes.
To say that 'you can't make a disciple of an infant' is an insult to God. God can make a disciple out of a rock.
Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. (Luke 3:8)
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Yael,
What do you view as the "graces of baptism?" Would you kindly define your view regarding this for us?
Lord Bless,
LT
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LT,
The graces of baptism are the gift of the Holy Spirit:
Acts 2:38
English Standard Version (ESV)
38And Peter said to them,"Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Titus 3:5
English Standard Version (ESV)
5he saved us,not because of works* done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
*( Works of the Mosaic Law)
Yeal
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Here is my issue with baby baptisms :
Baptism Saves
The Catholic church contends that baptism is necessary for salvation:
"The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation." Pg. 320, #1257
All Catholics should be aware that the Lord does not agree with this statement. The Bible teaches that salvation is a free gift that works can never buy. This doctrine was devised by Catholicism:
"The Church does not know of any other means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude..." Pg. 320, #1257
"The faithful are born anew by Baptism..." Pg. 311, #1212
"Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, and are incorporated into the Church..." Pg. 312, #1213
The Bible could not disagree more:
"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:" John 1:12
Despite Bible verses like these, the Catechism teaches that:
"Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte 'a new creature,' an adopted son of God, who has become a 'partaker of the divine nature,' member of Christ and co-heir with him, and a temple of the Holy Spirit." Pg. 322, #1265
"By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin." Pg. 321, #1263 (See pg. 257, #985)
All these doctrines violate a host of Scriptures. The Bible teaches that only Christ can forgive our sins, performing a "good work" like baptism will never do it:
"In whom we have redemption through his (Christ's) blood, the forgiveness of sins..." Ephesians 1:7
If baptism is necessary for salvation, would the Apostle Paul have proclaimed:
"For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel..." 1 Corinthians 1:17
Or would this same great man of God have stated:
"I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;" 1 Corinthians 1:14
John the Baptist's message was:
"Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Matthew 3:2
After people repented, then they were...
"... baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins." Matthew 3:6
Listen to what the Ethiopian eunuch asked Philip as they discussed the subject of baptism:
"And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." Acts 8:36-37
The Bible teaches that baptism should occur after salvation, not as a requirement for salvation. When the Philippian jailer asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" Paul answered:
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house... And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway." Acts 16:30, 31, 33
First, they believed, then they were baptized. Baptism always follows salvation! Here's another example:
"And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized." Acts 18:8
In Acts chapter two, Peter, the supposed first pope, preached. When he finished:
"... they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls." Acts 2:41
Again, they were baptized, not to become sons of God, but because they already were sons of God.
When Philip preached to the people of Samaria, first came salvation, then baptism:
"But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women." Acts 8:12
Soon after in that same passage, Simon, a deceiving sorcerer, followed the same path:
"Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip..." Acts 8:13
The Catechism states:
"All the sacraments are sacred links uniting the faithful with one another and binding them to Jesus Christ, and above all Baptism, the gate by which we enter into the Church." Pg. 248, #950
Just before his death, the thief on the cross next to Jesus put his faith in Jesus Christ. Obviously, he was never baptized, but he still went to paradise. Why? Because salvation is through faith in Christ, not through baptism.
The Catechism also contends that when a person is baptized, it is really Jesus Himself who is doing the baptizing:
"By his (Christ's) power he is present in the sacraments so that when anybody baptizes, it is really Christ himself who baptizes." Pg. 283, #1088
Simply stated, this is another Catholic tradition not found in God's Word.
Another Contradiction
Here is another Catholic doctrine:
"Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life." Pg. 324, #1274
But the Bible disagrees again, stating that the eternal destiny of God's children has been sealed with the Holy Spirit:
"... in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise," Ephesians 1:13
"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." Ephesians 4:30
Conclusion
Is baptism necessary for salvation? Catholic tradition and God's Word are at odds. The Catechism says "yes." God's Word says "no."
Who will you believe? by Rick Jones.
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Thank you David. This is excellent and really seals the point that many here have been making.
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Dear David,
Please study the catholic teaching seriously and quit plocking excerpts from their documents to make your case, as this may look like anti-catholic bigotry. I am afraid you are getting the wrong end of the stick here.
Catholics DO NOT teach that one is saved through baptism only. The Church teaches that SALVATION IS A FREE GIFT OF GOD. Thus Salvation takes place by Grace.
Baptism is a means of being consacreted as a member of the family of God as opposed to the nation of God, which were the israelites ( who by the way were consacreted thru circumcision). The 8 days old infant could not choose circumcision, rather his parents brought him to the synagogue to be circumcised and thereby covenanted with God on behalf of their child. The early church ( not only what you understand to be the catholic church of today) understood this perfectly and replaced the ordinance of circumcision with the sacrament (the outward sign ) of baptism.
They knew the effects of baptism to regenerate ( generates again = born anew or again) to wash away sin, and to infuse sanctifying grace ( cf Acts 2: 38, 22:16, Titus 3:5). Thus the statement:
"The faithful are born anew by Baptism..." Pg. 311, #1212
You quoted the statemnts below without their scripture references or not in full which makes it easy to misunderstand:
"The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation." Pg. 320, #1257
Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry* into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit
*Assures entry DOES NOT mean assure maintenance of this entry. If you had read the whole chapter #1212 you would see that the church declares the need for personal convertion through imitation of Christ and profession of faith! It is the Bible Christians the ones who believe in assurance of salvation, not catholics or orthodoxes!
As for the next statment:
"Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte 'a new creature,' an adopted son of God, who has become a 'partaker of the divine nature,' member of Christ and co-heir with him, and a temple of the Holy Spirit." Pg. 322, #1265
Here are the references:
Ref 1 - 2 Corinthians 5:17
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[a] The old has gone, the new is here! (NIV)
Ref 2 - Galatians 4:5-7
(ESV) 5 to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. 6And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" 7So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God.
Ref 3 - 2 Peter 1:44 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
Therefore, as you can see, your statement: All these doctrines violate a host of Scriptures, Is not correct, since they do not violet scriptures, but are based on them!!!
Now, when you say: The Bible teaches that only Christ can forgive our sins, performing a "good work" like baptism will never do it:
Please allow me to clarify your error:
1- Baptism IS NOT good works, but a Sacrament. The word sacrament comes from the latin root for the word oath:
Lat. sacramentum, an engagement, an oath; in ecclesiastical writers, a mystery, sacrament. Formed with suffix -mentum from sacrare, to dedicate, consecrate, render sacred or solemn.—Lat. sacr-, stem of sacer, sacred; see Sacred. Der. sacrament-al, sacrament-al-ly.
Nowhere in the catholic teachings you will find that one is saved by good works. However, catholics believe that personal convesion comes from faith and faith is expressed not only internally but also externarly by a change of life and imitation of christ. In this sense a believer is called to be holy and love his neighbour. showing love through good actions is what is called good works. Even praying for one another can be considered good works. As scriptures teach, we will be judged according the way we lived our lives.
Paul tells us: "For [God] will reward every man according to his works: to those who by perseverance in working good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. There will be . . . glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality" (Rom. 2:6–11; cf. Gal. 6:6–10).
The Catholic Church teaches only Christ is capable of meriting in the strict sense—mere man cannot (Catechism of the Catholic Church 2007). The most merit humans can have is condign—when, under the impetus of God’s grace, they perform acts which please him and which he has promised to reward (Rom. 2:6–11, Gal. 6:6–10). Thus God’s grace and his promise form the foundation for all human merit (CCC 2008).
As for Christ alone being able to forgive sins this is true, but he had all the authority from the Father, which he passed on the to his apostles!! Christ himself commanded the apostles to baptize in the name of the Trinity, didnt he? And didn't his apostles themselves, i.e. Peter, say that baptism washes sin away? So was Christ giving them the authority to wash away sins thru baptism or was it just meant as a symbollic act? If so, why would Paul and Peter say otherwise?
Lastly, you seem to believe that the catholic church teaches baptism alone as means of savation when in fact
catholics believe in Salvation BY GRACE!!
Where the totality of grace is, there is the totality of Salvation. Where grace no longer exists in the fractured state of simul justus et peccator, but in pure “Yes”, death, sin’s jailer, has no place.
Naturally, this involves the questions: What does the assumption of body and soul into heavenly glory mean? What, after all, does ‘immortality’ mean? Man is not immortal by his own power, but only in and through another, preliminary, tentatively, fragmentarily, in children, in fame, but finally and truly and only in and from the Entirely-Other, God. We are mortal due to the usurped autarchy of a determination to remain within ourselves, which proves to be a deception…
Nevertheless, where the innate propensity to autarchy is totally lacking, where there is the pure self-disposession (= grace), death is absent, even when somatic end is present. Instead, the whole human being enters salvation, because as a whole, undiminished, he stands eternally in God’s life-giving memory that preserves him as himself in his own life.
Pope Benedict XIV
Hope this will help!
Yeal
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Hi David,
I thought I'd add these scriptures to support a couple of statements I made above:
"As for Christ alone being able to forgive sins this is true, but he had all the authority from the Father, which he passed on the to his apostles!!"
This statement comes from John 20: 21-23
21Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you." 22And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld."
The second statement is: "Baptism is a means of being consacreted as a member of the family of God" -13For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body*— Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
* read: The body of Christ, the Church. So, in baptism one receives the gift of the Spirit (Acts 2:38) and becomes a member of Christ's Body.
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Excuse me David but your point is pointless since we are not talking about the Catholic Church.
If you want to discuss Christian Churches who baptise infants:
Catholic Churches
Orthodox Churches
Angelican Churches
Protestant (Lutherian) Churches (Evangelical Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists, and Church of Christ, etc. etc,)
Reformed (Calvinist) Churches
In fact ALL mainstream Christian churches baptise infants except those who are off-shoots of the Ana-baptist movement and groups who hold that they alone interpret Sacred Scripture aright.
Furthermore, every Christian, all the Church Fathers, bishops, and saints who lived after the apostles (and some while the apostles were still alive) interpreted our Lord's words in John chapter 3 that to be "born again" and "born of water and the Spirit" refers to the Sacrament of Baptism. There are no exceptions.
Philip Schaff (Presbyterian/Reformed) --
"This ordinance [Baptism] was regarded in the ancient church as the sacrament of the new birth or regeneration, and as the solemn rite of initiation into the Christian Church, admitting to all her benefits and committing to all her obligations....Its effect consists in the forgiveness of sins and the communication of the Holy Spirit.
"Justin [Martyr] calls baptism 'the water-bath for the forgiveness of sins and regeneration,' and 'the bath of conversion and the knowledge of God.' "It is often called also illumination, spiritual circumcision, anointing, sealing, gift of grace, symbol of redemption, death of sins, etc. Tertullian describes its effect thus: 'When the soul comes to faith, and becomes transformed through regeneration by water and power from above, it discovers, after the veil of the old corruption is taken away, its whole light. It is received into the fellowship of the Holy Spirit; and the soul, which unites itself to the Holy Spirit, is followed by the body.' ...."From John 3:5 and Mark 16:16, Tertullian and other fathers argued the necessity of baptism to salvation....The effect of baptism...was thought to extend only to sins committed before receiving it. Hence the frequent postponement of the sacrament [Procrastinatio baptismi], which Tertullian very earnestly recommends...." (History of the Christian Church, volume 2, page 253ff)
"The views of the ante-Nicene fathers concerning baptism and baptismal regeneration were in this period more copiously embellished in rhetorical style by Basil the Great and the two Gregories, who wrote special treatises on this sacrament, and were more clearly and logically developed by Augustine. The patristic and Roman Catholic view on regeneration, however, differs considerably from the one which now prevails among most Protestant denominations, especially those of the more Puritanic type, in that it signifies not so such a subjective change of heart, which is more properly called conversion, but a change in the objective condition and relation of the sinner, namely, his translation from the kingdom of Satan into the kingdom of Christ....Some modern divines make a distinction between baptismal regeneration and moral regeneration, in order to reconcile the doctrine of the fathers with the fact that the evidences of a new life are wholly wanting in so many who are baptized. But we cannot enter here into a discussion of the difficulties of this doctrine, and must confine ourselves to a historical statement." [patristic quotes follow] "In the doctrine of baptism also we have a much better right to speak of a -consensus patrum-, than in the doctrine of the Holy Supper." (History of the Christian Church, volume 3, page 481ff, 492)
Paul Enns (Dispensational/Baptist, Th.D. Dallas Theological Seminary) --
"Justin Martyr suggests Isaiah 1:16-20 refers to Christian baptism, apparently suggesting that this rite produces the new birth (1 Apol 61).....Very early in the Christian church, prominence was given to the rite of baptism so that many, in effect, taught baptismal regeneration. Justin Martyr taught that, to obtain the remission of sins, the name of the Father should be invoked over the one being baptized (1 Apol 61)...Although this concept was not as emphatic among the apostolic Fathers, it became increasingly so in the following centuries. Augustine, for instance, taught that original sin and sins committed before baptism were washed away through baptism. For that reason he advocated baptism for infants." (The Moody Handbook of Theology [1989], page 415, 427)
J.N.D. Kelly (Anglican patristic scholar) --
"From the beginning baptism was the universally accepted rite of admission to the Church; only 'those who have been baptized in the Lord's name' may partake of the eucharist [Didache 9:5]....As regards its significance, it was always held to convey the remission of sins....the theory that it mediated the Holy Spirit was fairly general....The Spirit is God Himself dwelling in the believer, and the resulting life is a re-creation...."
"Speculation about baptism in the third century revolves around its function, universally admitted hitherto, as the medium of the bestowal of the Spirit. Infant baptism was now common, and this fact, together with the rapid expansion of the Church's numbers, caused the administration of the sacrament to be increasingly delegated by bishops to presbyters....We observe a tendency to limit the effect of baptism itself to the remission of sins and regeneration, and to link the gift of the Spirit with these other rites [Chrismation, Confirmation, and the laying on of hands -- detailed analysis from the ante-Nicene Fathers on Baptism follows].....
"From these general considerations we turn to the particular sacraments. Cyril of Jerusalem provides a full, if not always coherent, account of the conception of baptism which commended itself to a fourth-century theologian in Palestine. The name he applies to the rite is 'baptism' or 'bath' [Greek provided along with references]. It is 'the bath of regeneration' in which we are washed both with water and with the Holy Spirit. Its effects can be summarized under three main heads. First, the baptized person receives the remission of sins, i.e. all sins committed prior to baptism. He passes from sin to righteousness, from filth to cleanliness; his restoration is total....Secondly, baptism conveys the positive blessing of sanctification, which Cyril describes as the illumination and deification of the believer's soul, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the putting on of the new man, spiritual rebirth and salvation, adoption as God's son by grace, union with Christ in His resurrection as in His suffering and death, the right to a heavenly inheritance....Thirdly, and closely connected with this, baptism impresses a seal [Greek provided] on the believer's soul. Just as the water cleanses the body, the Holy Spirit seals [Greek] the soul. This sealing takes place at the very moment of baptism....and as a result of it the baptized person enjoys the presence of the Holy Spirit....These ideas are fairly representative of Greek and Latin teaching about baptism in the fourth and fifth centuries." [detailed analysis from the post-Nicene Fathers on Baptism follows] (Early Christian Doctrines, page 193ff, 207ff, 428ff)
Jaroslav Pelikan (Lutheran patristic scholar) --
"Although references to the doctrine of baptism are scattered throughout the Christian literature of the second and third centuries, only one extant treatise from the period is devoted exclusively to the subject, that of Tertullian. And the most succinct statement by Tertullian on the doctrine of baptism actually came, not in his treatise on baptism, but in his polemic against Marcion....Tertullian argued that none of the four basic gifts of baptism could be granted if that dualism [of Marcion] were maintained. The four gifts were: the remission of sins, deliverance from death, regeneration, and bestowal of the Holy Spirit...It is noteworthy that Tertullian, regardless of how much a Montanist he may have been at this point, was summarizing what the doctrine of the church was at his time -- as well as probably before his time and certainly since his time. Tertullian's enumeration of the gifts of baptism would be difficult to duplicate in so summary a form from other Christian writers, but those who did speak of baptism also spoke of one or more of these gifts. Baptism brought the remission of sins; the doctrine of baptism was in fact the occasion for many of the references to forgiveness of sins in the literature of these centuries [references to Cyprian, Hippolytus, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Justin Martyr, Hermas]."
"With deliverance from death came a new life and regeneration. The phrase 'washing of regeneration' in Titus 3:5 was synonymous with 'the baptism of regeneration.' [references to Methodius of Olympus, Tertullian, Cyprian, and Origen]."
"Tertullian's summary of these four gifts makes it clear 'that by the end of the second century, if not fifty years earlier, the doctrine of baptism (even without the aid of controversy to give it precision) was so fully developed that subsequent ages down to our own have found nothing significant to add to it' [citing Evans]." (The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine, volume 1: The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition 100-600, pages 163ff)
William Webster, a former Catholic turned Evangelical, in his 1995 book The Church of Rome at the Bar of History, freely admits the unanimous position of the Church Fathers as to what is called "baptismal regeneration" :
"The doctrine of baptism is one of the few teachings within Roman Catholicism for which it can be said that there is a universal consent of the Fathers....From the early days of the Church, baptism was universally perceived as the means of receiving four basic gifts: the remission of sins, deliverance from death, regeneration, and the bestowal of the Holy Spirit." (Webster, page 95-96)
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Thank you Sharon! Infant baptism is not an invention of Catholics.
If anyone doubt it, they only need to read the 1st centuries fathers of the church...
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