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Infant baptism
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Permalink Reply by Carla on
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Scribe, Thank you for your input . it is so encouraging to hear others who have gone through similiar things, or are going through it.. I pray that we will all have this gift of resolve to stand more boldly regardless of persecution which may arise.... and to continually speak the truth in love. Blessings ~Carla
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Permalink Reply by JB on
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Amanda,
I am going to be very brief and for some to understand this it will take a little more explaining, but for now: after reading this last post of yours it seems as though you have hinged your righteousness on your performance, taking the Lord’s supper, baptism, going to church, paying tithes, trying not to sin etc. All of these are well and good and certainly to be practiced, but these are all done based on your righteousness, not the other way round. By the renewing of the mind you will see that you are (if you are born again; which I believe you are based on your confession) Holy and righteous, and you use this Holiness and righteousness to perform, quit sinning, being baptized, etc. Our righteousness is in Christ and Christ alone, for this is the only way our righteousness can exceed that of the Scribes and Pharisees mentioned in Mat.5:20.
You said “you are not in church now” but you are; you are just not assembling yourself or fellowshipping with like minded believers. Those buildings are not the church, the body of Christ is and you are in it.
Blessings
Joe
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Permalink Reply by ScribeD on
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Amanda, baptism and the Lord's supper are the evidences of being part of the family, not the means of joining. I know many folks are confused about this and I know some will get angry at my simplification; but I am confident in what I am about to tell you.
Let me explain: in Ephesians 1:5, Paul uses a phrase that is translated "adopted as sons" or "adoption to sonship". It is a phrase that spoke of a specific rite of adoption in Roman culture.
Now, my wife and I have adopted children from a foreign orphanage. It was an arduous (and expensive) legal process, which frankly ground the life out of us for several years' time, in order to complete the full legal adoption process. The kids did not do the work, and they did not pay the money. The were recipients of adoption.
When our kids arrived, they didn't speak like us and they didn't understand our family culture. We have been teaching them as patiently as we can what it means to belong in our family. We dressed them in new clothes, gave them new surroundings, allowed them to have new personal belongings. It was a very new concept for them to realize that they could own certain things, and that they could control areas of their lives that had not been in their control before and there were responsibilities now that they did not have before.
At first, they struggled to understand some of our rituals and they also struggled to accept some of the new freedoms. For instance:
We eat together and honor each other as family, at a table, with prayers offering thanks to God so that we are inviting him to join us.
We allowed them to decide what we would eat some days. But, other days they are required to eat exactly what they were given, regardless of their opinion.
We require them to wash every night and wear clean clothes every day. This may seem simple to you and I, but where they came from, they were allowed to wear dirty clothing and go dirty for days at a time.
They are required to accept boundaries and responsibilities that they did not have to accept in the orphanage. Yet, they now have freedoms and opportunities they did not have before. They are required to read daily, but they have a huge library nearby to choose from. We allow them (with certain boundaries) to choose to read whatever they want. Before, they were forced to read and learn by rote memorization. They are required to care for the books and return them as they received them - or pay for the books themselves.
One day, my son tried to pay me for loving him. He had earned some money helping a friend and he felt that this was something he needed to do. He offered me ten dollars, as payment for loving him and being his dad. As you can imagine, I got pretty choked up. Of course, I did not accept the payment.
When the final adoption decree was granted by the court, my son and daughter finally relaxed. For now, they realized... they had a paper that declared they had new names, our name, and there was an official statement saying "you belong". This transformed their hearts.
So, in the same way, Christians have a culture that binds us as family:
Baptism is a part of the culture of becoming part of the family of God. It is a declaration by you, that you are accepting the adoption which was legally purchased for you by God, through the death of Christ.
Personal confession of our sin, to Jesus, is how we wash ourselves. It is a regular habit that enables us to stay clean and humble. It's amazing how talking to Jesus cleans the heart and mind.
The Lord's supper is a meal that we share as community and in communion with God. It's a reminder of the work of Christ as payment in full for your adoption, a reminder of what it cost and a reminder that you are part of the family, for you sit at his table - you are not an outsider. This is not FOR salvation, but part of the culture of the saved, which binds our family together.
Keeping the whole counsel of scripture in mind helps us to see how God sees us: precious, beloved treasures. It makes us want to live like him, be like him, gracious, generous, forgiving, kind. So, we do our best to live with humble hearts that seek his face, because we already HAVE his favor. We are members of his family, seated at his table. We belong, and so we are invited to join as a matter of course.
You see, you have a piece of paper, a legal document which says: you have been adopted by the King of Kings. You have been granted his name and you belong.
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Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on
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Thanks for your testimony, Scribe. I needed to hear it today and appreciate you posting it.
Blessings,
Rita
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Scribe, Your description of adoption helped me to see our Fathers heart more clearly also.. Thank you. This was such a tremendous blessing to read and have a glimpse of your beautiful family..
Blessings, Carla
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Infant baptism is not for show, to use the words of Paul to the Colossians, it is the new circuncion of the spirit,
men are born in iniquity. they need cleansing from original sin.
Psalm 51:5 – we are conceived in the iniquity of sin.
Job 14:1-4 – man that is born of woman is full of trouble and unclean.
If you read Acts 2:38 in the original greek you'll see that it says: “Metanoesate kai bapistheto hekastos hymon.” In plain english: “If you repent, then each one who is a part of you and yours must each be baptized”.
Repentance is for the adults who were NOT believers and became such. For children it was a consecration, as the anglicans say 'Christining' , meaning a consagration to God through Christ.
Peter also said, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your *children (*teknon in Greek – which means infants, as the same word is used to describe eight-day old infants in Acts 21:21) ...
On top of all that, we see the accounts of those who believed and were baptized with their whole family or household. The word for household here would be oikon in greek, which include adults, children and infants as well as servents or slaves....
Cant get clearer than that!
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Yael, please tell me where in scripture there is an example of an infant being baptized. I have never read it one.
And, please understand I'm not challenging that we should dedicate/consecrate our kiddos to Christ. I totally agree that we are to do that.
What I will challenge is that a dedication/consecration/infant baptism is not the same as being baptized, by your own decision, as an adult.
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Hi Scirbe,
There isn't one, as far as I am aware. HOWEVER, if you look at what the word household means in the greek sense (oikos), as it was used in the original scriptures, it includes children, adults and slaves/servents. This notion can be seen in the case of Lydia ( among other exemples, such as Acts 16:33), where thoshe who had accepted Jesus and were baptized along with their household (OIKOS)...
"When she and the members of her household were baptized, she invited us to her home. 'If you consider me a believer in the Lord,' she said, 'come and stay at my house.' And she persuaded us." Acts 16:15
Now, you may find this to be a difficult droctrine to accept, since it is not litterally written down in the bible, but I am sure no-one can point out a passage where it is CLEARLY stated that there is such a thing as Holy Trinity. This is something that the early church discerned guided by the spirit of God. If we can accept that, why can we not accept infant baptism. Given the evidences, I think it is reasonable to accept it.
Paul talks about baptism as the 'new circumcision' and the the early church often contrasted the rite of baptism to that of circumcision. In the same way the rite of Circumcision initiated one into the nation of Israel and the Jewish people, the rite of Baptism brings one into the life of the Church.
"In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead." Colossians 2:11-12
Now, the circumcision in the OT was nothing less than a consecration (setting aside) of the infant to God through the faith of the parents, wasn't it? Same with baptism.
This line of reasoning was carried on by the early church. For example, Hilary of Poitiers[1], Augustine[2], and Cyprian[3] all expressed the idea that Circumcision is connected to the Rite of Baptism.
Before the Bible was put together ( hundreds of years afther the Apostles) these people were preaching the faith of the Apostles as they had received it...
“The Church received from the Apostles the tradition of given baptism even to infants. For the apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine mysteries, knew that there is in everyone the innate stains of sin, which are washed away through water and the Spirit.” (Origen, 248 AD - Commentaries on Romans 5:9)
You might want to check out this link by OrthodoxWiki
http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Infant_baptism
hope this helps!
Yael
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Yael, my standard for building a doctrine is direct imperitives, which are reinforced by examples. I'm afraid this still doesn't arise to meet that standard as I understand it. I'm going to stand on what I i have said already in this discussion.
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Permalink Reply by Sharon Theresa Theil on
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Scibe,
Jesus taught us:
"Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 19:14).
"Now they were bringing even infants to Him that He might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to Him, saying, ‘Let the children come to Me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God’" (Luke 18:15–16).
The Lord did not require them to make a conscious decision. He says that they are precisely the kind of people who can come to Him and receive the kingdom.St. Peter said, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38).
But he did not restrict this teaching to adults. He added,
"For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him" (2:39).
We also read: "Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His Name" (Acts 22:16).
These commands are universal, not restricted to adults. Further, these commands make clear the necessary connection between baptism and salvation, a connection explicitly stated in 1 Peter 3:21:
"Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."
Furthermore, St. Paul (Col. 2:11–12). refers to baptism as "the circumcision of Christ" and "the circumcision made without hands." Of course, usually only infants were circumcised; if St. Paul meant to exclude infants, he would not have chosen circumcision as a parallel for baptism.Moreover, In the New Testament we read that Lydia was converted by Paul’s preaching and that "She was baptized, with her household" (Acts 16:15).
The Philippian jailer whom Paul and Silas had converted to the faith was baptized that night along with his household. We are told that "the same hour of the night . . . he was baptized, with all his family" (Acts 16:33).
And in his greetings to the Corinthians, Paul recalled that, "I did baptize also the household of Stephanas" (1 Cor. 1:16).
In all these cases, whole households or families were baptized. This means more than just the spouse; the children too were included. If the text of Acts referred simply to the Philippian jailer and his wife, then we would read that "he and his wife were baptized," but we do not. Thus his children must have been baptized as well. The same applies to the other cases of household baptism in Scripture.
Given the New Testament pattern of household baptism, if there were to be exceptions to this rule (such as infants), they would be explicit.In reality, the Bible indicates that infants are to be baptized, that they too are meant to inherit the kingdom of heaven.
"Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God" (Luke 18:16).
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Scribe, that's perfectly fine.
As for me, I stick to what the early Church taught and believed. Those guys heard and learned from the apostles, who learned from christ. If they did it (baptize infants), that's good enough reason for me to accept and embrace it as right.
Still I dont quite understand how you could apply your 'standards' to the elaboration of the Holy Trinity doctrine....
Blessings!
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