If you believe you can lose your salvation, please take time to illustrate how a person can lose their salvation by making it applicable to the believer today.

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 23, 2011 at 7:27am

Clayton,

 

First of all what it is to be saved? We are not saved by "accepting Jesus into our Heart and doing things in His name", We see in the Bible that 'Many will come on that day declaring Christ as "Lord" and claiming that they did  works in HIS NAME. But Christ will say "Get away from me you workers of Lawlessness".

We are saved when we come through repentance to saving faith and are born-again. The born-again are changed, sealed, indwelt and empowered to name a few of the changes. Those who you list as proclaiming Christ are standing on their works and proclaiming that they did these things. There is no evidence that they were ever saved, but only thought they were.   

 

 

Many misunderstand salvation these days. We are not saved only by Faith. "Faith Without works is Dead" - James. We are saved by Obedience to the Gospel. Now notice carefully, that those who have true faith will be obeyers of God and his word. That'z the faith that saves, and until the person obeys He will be under God's protection.

James does not say we are saved by obedience to the gospel. He says that faith will be accompanied by works (fruit). Paul says the same thing in Ephesians 2:8-10. The works follow faith

 

Losing salvation is simply getting back to the World. The Bible is very clear that "those who stand till the end" will be saved. The Bible also teaches us that because of False Teachers many Elect will fall. Aren't the elect Believers? Moreover Paul uses a very important Phrase called "Shipwrecked their Faith", meaning that once they were ppl who had faith but shipwrecked because of unbelief, deception and deceitfulness of wealth.

You see the command as standing to the end a warning against failing. I see it as encouraging words to the one who is going through difficult trial and tribulations that God promises when he reaches the end he is going to be saved. Regarding the elect, the word goes on to say “if that were possible.” What does shipwreck their faith mean to you? What does handing one over to Satan mean to you? Look back to 1 Cor. 5:5 to get an idea. Also what was Hymenaeus error? Look to 2 Timothy 2:17-18.

 

These days ppl are more concerned about salvation than their relationship with God. THat'z when questions like "can I lose my salvation?" start emerging. This is because their hearts are more focussed on escaping Hell rather than on Love and Obedience to God.

That is an opinion. Some people ask the question out concern for their loved ones. If someone is, as you put it, more concerned with salvation than relationship they are not going to find salvation, for the primary purpose of our salvation is relationship. Being saved from hell cannot be the single motivating factor regarding one wanting to be saved. We are saved from hell and saved unto God.

 

But Those who obey God have a security in Them, that they KNOW GOD AND GOD KNOWS THEM >>> THAT's Faith which produces fruits.

You put the cart before the horse here. You do not know God because you obeyed Him. You know God through the Father calling you to Christ, the Son revealing the Father and the conviction of the Holy Spirit. When we come to know Him and are born-again, and then we are called to good works, works that bear fruit.

 

But those who are even baptised and continue sinning are doomed to hell. Or if  Baptism and Receiving Jesus into our Hearts were more important than obedience, then why Didn't God save those Circumcised in Flesh?

They were circumcised in the flesh as a sign of the old covenant. The new covenant sign of circumcision is a circumcision of the heart. Baptism does not save, and I am not clear on your meaning as applied by you regarding “receiving Jesus into your heart.” One must be born-again in order to enter the kingdom of heaven. This is by grace, not works. The works follow the act of grace that causes one to be born-again.

 

No, It’s not about our Doctrine that Saves us…What saves us is our Repentance, and Obedience to God – the first obedience being  Believing in Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Amen.

What saves us is Jesus only. He is our Savior and Redeemer, the Lamb of God. Repentance is a part of the process that God leads us through unto salvation and works are the responsibility after salvation, but not in order to retain it, but because of the new life in Christ.

 

Lord Bless,

LT

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Permalink Reply by Clayton Peter Menezes on February 27, 2011 at 9:09pm

Dear LT.

 

Yes, when we chat online we can't really express things to the fullest understanding. Therefore we might take some time to understand eachother.

 

Ok I want to take things in a deeper level. I completely agree with you on the Point that we are saved by Faith in Jesus Christ alone. Amen. I believe that the good work that the Lord has begun He shall complete. I agree that God will never leave us nor forsake us. I believe that God has pre-destined us to be His Children. Yes, We are predestined to be His Children and we can't do things on our Own.

 

But I want to give you a scenario, a true life situation. Imagine a man is living a life of sin. Now this man hears the Gospel, believes and get's baptised. Let's imagine that he belives strongly in Christ but still lives under sin . And let's say that God convicts Him of the sins. Now let's imagine that this man still chooses to rebel, but in his heart still believes that Jesus Died for His sins and Rose again. He has Faith in Christ Jesus, and Believes the Bible. But in His heart he wages a battle. And Imagine He has the conviction of sin, but keeps on rebelling because he enjoys that sin (imagine it's pornography). Now this man dies while still having Faith in Christ. Will he be saved because Of His Faith in Christ?

Let's get the facts clear

1. He was Baptised.
2. He has Faith in Christ Jesus and His saving Work.
3. He does not give up sin (He doesn't work out His Salvation).

Will he be saved?

 

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Permalink Reply by Robert Browning on February 28, 2011 at 1:35am

The Answer is simple.  Yes, he is still saved, but at the great white throne Judgment, where Jesus will Judge us on our works while we are on Earth.  Believe me it took me along time to come to that conclusion, since I once taught that we could loose our salvation.  I spent several months researching that very same question and have studding each verse after verse.  They supported that we are saved and that what separates us is the rewards that we receive when we get to heaven after the millennium. 

I am looking into one possible exception that is suicide, and that is not promising. In the Bible there were two people who took there own life.

The first person is in standard then for determining whether suicide is sinful is to ask whether suicide is pleasing to God. In the case of Samson, we have a wayward Israelite judge, who had allowed himself to be compromised and thus humiliated and imprisoned by Israel's enemies. Samson's prayer and subsequent suicide was apparently pleasing to God, who seemingly viewed Samson's act as a sincere and redemptive act of contrition. Samson's suicide was on the same moral level as a soldier who gives his life to strike a blow to his nation's enemies and perhaps save the lives of his fellow comrades-in-arms.

The second person is Judas, who killed himself after betraying Jesus for 30 pieces of silver.  There is a couple of stories about Judas about his suicide, He hung himself and another story saying that He broke apart, so it left people to believe that he jumped from a cliff.  But with with my knowledge of science I believe He hung himself and he was there long enough that the methane gas built up into Judas body where his body split open because the gas inflated his body.  I know that is sick to think about.

These stories illustrate that people take their lives for different reasons -- something that has been the case since the dawn of human history.  There is no where in the Bible that shows that suicide is moral sin and you will loose your soul.  So far with my research of Once saved always saved.  Suicide could be covered under that.  I am in the process of learning ancient Biblical Hebrew, so I could translate the actual scrolls and even the lost books of the Bible in the caves Qumran and maybe I can find more truth.  My life is based on studding the Word of God.

 

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Permalink Reply by Clayton Peter Menezes on March 1, 2011 at 12:21am

Dear Robert.

 

The Bible declares with Authority and Truth, that those who live an immoral life, and those who do not repent, will definitely not be saved from Hell. This is True in Jesus'' sayings and in the Apostolic letters. Then How is it that you say that such people will be saved? Have you no Wisdom at all?

 

And About suicide. Don't you realise that it is murder of self? And can a Murderer enter the Kingdom of Heaven, unless he repents and Turns to Christ Jesus in Faith and Obedience?

 

Somethings are too obvious, but Praise God for the Standard called the Bible.

 

God give you Wisdom.

Seek Wisdom First, then you will do well studying Hebrew. Cause Widom gives us Godly Knowledge.

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Permalink Reply by Robert Browning on March 1, 2011 at 12:56am

True it easy is so easy say what we believe.  I believed the same way you did, but I ran into after a year of research I am leaning towards Eternal Security, This Scripture is one of many John 3:15-18.  I believe what I said about suicide, and I used Samson and Judas has examples.  Sampson gave his life for others and Judas just took his own life.  That Sampson and Judas was two complete different situations.  What if a soldier fall on a hand grenade to save his friends on the battle field.  So under that situation you would say that He would go to hell, for give his life to save others.  I don't think so and there is no where in the Bible that will back it up.  You can easily change my mind by giving me the appropriate scriptures.

God Bless You, and I welcome any opinions

Robert

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Permalink Reply by Clayton Peter Menezes on March 1, 2011 at 7:56am

Bro about Samson, it was not really suicide. He died in a battle. Suicide is intentionally murdering of self. But Samson died in a war. I agree with you on this one. But that does not allow suicide at all. Suicide, like abortion, is Murder.

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Permalink Reply by David Abel on March 1, 2011 at 9:34am

Hi Amanda

 

"If the person was born again and committed suicide at a later time, does the person lose salvation? So back we go to the old debate. In a circle."

 

If I may, I just had some thoughts as I read your post.

 

There are some in this community that believe very little in free-will (I would say Calvinistic / Calvinistic type doctrine), others believe that God's sovereignty can "bend" the born-again's free will to bring them back in line with His will for their life.

 

The above two views beg the question, how much free-will does a born again person actually have? None of his own? Free will that God can bend to His will? None of these views make any sense when applied to a born-again child of God who commits suicide. If fact, by the very reasoning that the two views imply, it is impossible for a born-again child of God to commit suicide.

 

If indeed it is possible for a born again child of God to commit suicide and still remain saved, that leaves the third view - that free will has a much larger part to play than we think, and that neither of the other two views hold any weight whatsoever.

 

The issue of suicide as related OSAS is not circular as I see it. I see that irrespective of what view one holds with respect to God's foreknowledge/predestination, a born again child of God will not ever commit suicide. Because if he or she is truly born again, Phil 2:13 ...for it is God who works in you both to will and to do (commit suicide?) for His good pleasure, and ALL OTHER SCRIPTURES pro-OSAS / eternal security...

 

Just my thoughts...

 

God Bless,

David A.

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Permalink Reply by David Abel on March 1, 2011 at 12:04pm

Hi Amanda. I cannot confirm 100% about suicide that they are definitely hell-bound after the act. What I am trying to get at is that all the views and scriptures used for OSAS / eternal security point AWAY from a born again child of God being able to commit suicide.

 

Firstly, as I understand things at the moment, there a three views w.r.t. Free Will:

1. No free will. God's sovereignty is what determines things in peoples' lives.

2. Free will is there, but for the born again child of God, God's sovereignty can actually "override" the free will of the individual and bring them back in line. This could also be through divine discipline (not punitive, but corrective and motivated by the Father's love).

3. Total free will of man to do exactly and whatever he pleases, even after being born again. But having said that, a born again child of God will surrender his free will anyway to the will of His Father and be led by the Holy Spirit.

 

Now taking the above into account, and that I am actually TAKING an OSAS / eternal security point of view here, irrespective of which one of the three POVs one holds w.r.t. free will, and specifically for the born again child of God, all the scriptures used for OSAS / eternal security say that God will not allow His true son/daughter to commit suicide. Even in POV number 3, the free will of the born again would not allow him/her to choose the suicide route, because the scriptures used for OSAS / eternal security show that it is not possible for a true son/daughter of God to end his physical life in this way. Take all the scriptures used for OSAS / eternal security and apply them for someone who commits suicide. Does it make sense that someone who is born again, positionally sanctified, is being experientially sanctified, with a view to be eternally glorified, indwelt, sealed, marked, covered, protected, Holy Spirit led and directed, not walking according to the flesh any longer but according to the Holy Spirit (otherwise automatic condemnation according to Rom 8), having life and peace by being spiritually minded (also according to Rom 8), etc., could come to the point of their problems being so much to bear that they have to commit suicide?

 

2Co 7:10  For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

2Co 7:11  For observe this very thing, that you sorrowed in a godly manner: What diligence it produced in you, what clearing of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what vehement desire, what zeal, what vindication! In all things you proved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

 

It seems that godly sorrow that leads to true repentance and salvation PRODUCES diligence, vehement desire, zeal, etc. but the sorrow of the world produces death. For what reason do people commit suicide? To go to be with the Lord in glory? Because of sorrows and problems in this life that are unbearable that the Holy Spirit cannot help them with? Because of godly sorrow or worldly sorrow?

 

The issue is not about true born again sons/daughters of God sinning, but the frame of mind and heart, and the spiritual condition of the one who commits suicide - is it possible that they are in the Spirit, or rather in the flesh? Rom 8 alone does not attest to a born again child of God coming to such a point of them commiting suicide. Commiting suicide is something done in the flesh and not in the Spirit.

 

I am not saying much more than what OSAS / eternal security would say...

 

God Bless,

David A.

Permalink Reply by David Abel on March 2, 2011 at 3:46am

Hi Amanda

 

Thank you for your post, it makes things much clearer. I see what you are saying about 2 Corinth 7:10-11. The Amplified also helps to make it much clearer to me:

 

10 For godly grief and the pain God is permitted to direct, produce a repentance that leads and contributes to salvation and deliverance from evil, and it never brings regret; but worldly grief (the hopeless sorrow that is characteristic of the pagan world) is deadly [breeding and ending in death].

    11 For [you can look back now and] observe what this same godly sorrow has done for you and has produced in you: what eagerness and earnest care to explain and clear yourselves [of all [a]complicity in the condoning of incest], what indignation [at the sin], what alarm, what yearning, what zeal [to do justice to all concerned], what readiness to mete out punishment [[b]to the offender]! At every point you have proved yourselves cleared and guiltless in the matter. [I Cor. 5.]

 

I know that born again children of God can be depressed, impulsive, and many other things as well, e.g. angry, jealous, hateful, etc., but surely the Holy Spirit helps us through these things to keep these things in check and not let them overpower us, building up rather the fruit of the Spirit in our lives in their place (over time). Even David when deeply discouraged, encouraged himself in the Lord. I keep wondering, if the Holy Spirit is leading, directing and empowering a son/daughter of God, would He not keep them from going overboard into depression, impulsion, etc. to the point of commiting suicide? I guess the same question can be asked for lust and a son/daughter of God falling into fornication/adultery, and the same for anger where a son/daughter of God murders someone. Are born again Holy Spirit filled sons/daughters of God capable of such things, or are they never truly born again in the first place? Or does such a person have strong foundational and generational issues that have not been dealt with? For someone to go to extremes there must be more going on than normal depression, impulse, anger, lust, etc.

 

I also thank you for giving another scenario, about those who are terminally ill, and taking your profession into account this must be very personal to you. Suicide anyway is a sensitive issue, especially for those who have had loved ones who committed suicide.

 

Even here though, I wonder about God's perfect will of wanting His sons and daughters living in good health and leading victorious lives. Are those who are terminally sick and born again not laying hold of God's promises of health and victory somehow? The requirement for healing in the Bible was always and continues to be faith. Are some born again children of God living in God's permissive will instead of His perfect will? Are these also the result of strong foundational and generational issues that have to be dealt with by the power of God and His Word? Or is it demons/spirits of sickness afflicting the body that have to be dealt with? Are we missing a bigger picture of things?

 

I am also trying to grasp all these things. There are so many things like OSAS / eternal security, foreknowledge, predestination, elect, being called, being chosen, will of God, will of man, God's Sovereignty, etc. that all overlap. I am still trying to get a good grasp of things and how to apply them to different real-life scenarios...

 

God Bless,

David A.

Permalink Reply by David Abel on March 2, 2011 at 8:50am

Hi Amanda

 

Not "generational and foundational curses", but generational and foundational issues... :-)

 

Every person on Planet Earth is already born into the foundation of their mother's line and father's line. These lines determine the problems in each person's life and consequently their own children's lives. The fruit in peoples' lives bear witness of this, and much of it is bad fruit, even though the people are saved.

 

These issues can be dealt with, but requires breaking down of the old and God replacing it with new. I am not talking about being born again / regeneration of the spirit man.

 

There are many things to break - evil cycles, evil patterns, evil maturity date, evil deposits, seeds and plantations, evil load, evil covenants and curses (even though you don't believe in the curses part), evil dedications, effects of witchcraft and idolatry in the foundation, etc.

 

I am Indian. My roots are in India, whose foundation is witchcraft and idolatry to the worst extent in the world I would say. I know what my wife and I and our kids have been through. I know what strong bondage through foundational issues are, and the necessity to break them.

 

I know what I am talking about when I refer to foundational and generational issues. It is the number one thing that most people never overcome in their Christian lives and live defeated lives because of it...

 

We have experienced the power of God in our lives to destroy the power of the devil in our lives. And the power of the devil we know very well, especially those coming from other religions, the occult, satanism, etc.

 

I am not giving glory to the devil, but only to God, who alone has the power to break foundational and generational issues and bondages compounded by demonic activity. These things are very, very real.

 

God Bless,

David A.

Permalink Reply by David Abel on March 2, 2011 at 11:24am

Hi Amanda. I don't think that I said there was a half-way between lost and saved. It is either lost or saved. I do not think that you fully understand all the things that I have mentioned. It took me much time to understand them myself and how they apply specifically in my situation. True, much of it is in the flesh, but also in the soul. And true, some of it is solved with the ongoing sanctification process. But the bulk of it is solved with knowing what and who is behind the problem and the ability to fight back by the power of God. The kingdom of darkness understands no other language but that of spiritual violence. The Bible is replete with references to / examples of warring and fighting and the deliverance of God, both Old and New Testaments. If God Himself has enemies, how much us also as children of God? One attribute of God (and we are made in the image of God) is as follows:

Exo 15:3

The LORD is a man of war; The LORD is His name.

God Bless,

David A.

Permalink Reply by Robert Browning on March 1, 2011 at 9:55am

Amanda, you are right! I research a lot different things in the Bible and Suicide is just one thing.  I am interested of what other circumstances in the Bible about Suicide that you know about.

I start researching suicide, because I was one of those people that did not agree with Once saved always save, and figure suicide would be that exception. 

I have change my opinion about Eternal Security, but like most people I still have a problem with suicide, so I decided to find the answer in the Bible.  As usual it is not an easy subject to research.

 

We as Christian should learn the language of the Bible of what it written in.  The Old Testament was written in ancient Hebrew and the New Testament was written in ancient Greek.  Maybe if we study the Bible in it original language, then there would not be 22.000 different denomination of Christian Faith.

 

I am very sorry if I offended anyone.  Usually I stay away of controversial subject, because there are so many different opinions that could get very emotional.  I keep an open mind and see if I can have the  answer in the Bible, sometimes it can take a while.

God Bless you,

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