If you believe you can lose your salvation, please take time to illustrate how a person can lose their salvation by making it applicable to the believer today.

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 19, 2011 at 12:30pm

LB,

 

I struggle to remember you using the biblical term "born-again." You may have, but I can't remember you applying it to the believer. What does being born-again mean to you and when does it occur?

 

Lord Bless,

LT

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Permalink Reply by David Abel on February 17, 2011 at 4:19am

Hi LT

 

May I be so bold as to begin with this one? There are many more which I am sure others will cover.

 

There appears to be only one Greek word for the word “believe” as it appears in its many forms in the English version of the New Testament. Taking the simplicity and beauty of John 3:16, salvation is attained upon believing in Him, which many people do (believe in Him), after hearing the Gospel preached. Simon the sorcerer was one who believed in the Gospel and in Jesus Christ after hearing the preaching of the Gospel. So he believed unto salvation, but his heart betrayed him – his heart was not right with God. Who knows whether he made it to the end or not, or repented of his sin or not, but Peter did immediately after his sin say to him, “Your money perish with you”, yet John 3:16 says, “...shall not perish...”. Was Peter wrong to condemn Simon (to perishing) at that moment in time, and then command Simon to repent, if perhaps the thoughts of his heart may be forgiven him by God?

 

Now this will be the point that OSAS view proponents will contest: I believe that Simon believed unto salvation and thereby was on the path to not perishing; then almost immediately lost it by his words/actions/sin and was back on the path to perishing. Peter’s words confirm this.

 

He had it (salvation) with his belief, and then lost it with the condition of his heart, wickedness, etc. manifesting and still not dealt with in his life. This man needed change and deliverance. Only his choices, change of heart, and further actions thereafter would have determined his end.

 

How does this apply in the life of a believer today? Many are saved when the gospel is preached, but those with much witchcraft, sorcery, idolatry, wickedness, rebellion, etc.  in their lives previously have much in their hearts/foundations that have to still be dealt with, and unless they deal with those things by God’s grace, instruction and process, they can easily lose what they so easily attained, by virtue of un-dealt with foundational bondage. Indeed the spirit is made new, but the person in soul and body must follow the new work in the spirit. The spirit is made new, but much wickedness still dwells in the flesh and soul. Choices, choices, even for the new believer. Follow God’s work and co-operate with the Holy Spirit, or follow the flesh and the previous bondages you came out of. The fruit over time will determine the choices made by the new convert/believer.

 

G4100

πιστεύω

pisteuō

pist-yoo'-o

From G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

 

KJV:

Joh 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

Act 8:12  But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Act 8:13  Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

...

Act 8:20  But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

Act 8:21  Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.

Act 8:22  Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

Act 8:23  For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

 

God Bless,

David A.

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 17, 2011 at 6:35am

Hey David A.,

 

What did Simon believe? Did he come to Christ in repentance or simply believe that Jesus was God, the miracle worker or ??? The demons know He is God. Faith is not simply an acknowledgment of truth, it is a work of God and a trust in God. He heard the message and accented to it, but what soil represents his heart? What does Peter proclaim regarding his heart? Many people accept the Word intellectually, but never have a change of heart. His action and Peter’s response prove his heart was never changed.

 

 

AC 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

AC 8:13 Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw.

 

There is no evidence that he received the Holy Spirit, but witnessed the Spirit being given at the laying on of hands.

 

AC 8:14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them.

AC 8:15 When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit,

AC 8:16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.

AC 8:17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

AC 8:18 When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money

AC 8:19 and said, "Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit."

 

Peter responded to his action as follows:

AC 8:20 Peter answered: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money!

AC 8:21 You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God.

AC 8:22 Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive you for having such a thought in your heart.

 

Jesus says:

MT 6:21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

 

And

 

MT 12:34 You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks.

MT 12:35 The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him.

 

The Bible says the following regarding this:

AC 15:6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.

 

Those they laid hands on received the Holy Spirit, proving their hearts were right with God. Peter proclaims that Simon’s heart was not right with God. There is no evidence of him being born-again.

 

The Bible teaches repentance

MK 1:14 After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God. 15 "The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!

 

AC 2:37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"

AC 2:38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call."

 

AC 19:17 When this became known to the Jews and Greeks living in Ephesus, they were all seized with fear, and the name of the Lord Jesus was held in high honor. 18 Many of those who believed now came and openly confessed their evil deeds. 19 A number who had practiced sorcery brought their scrolls together and burned them publicly. When they calculated the value of the scrolls, the total came to fifty thousand drachmas. 20 In this way the word of the Lord spread widely and grew in power.

 

His actions spoke against him and what God calls true faith:

JAS 2:18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."

    Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.

JAS 2:20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. 24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

 

Jesus illustrates the Word falling on various soils. Which one represents Simon?

MT 13:1 That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. 2 Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. 3 Then he told them many things in parables, saying: "A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop--a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 He who has ears, let him hear."

 

MT 13:10 The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"

 

MT 13:11 He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables:

 

"Though seeing, they do not see;

 though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

 

MT 13:14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:

  " `You will be ever hearing but never understanding;

    you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

 

  MT 13:15 For this people's heart has become calloused;

    they hardly hear with their ears,

    and they have closed their eyes.

  Otherwise they might see with their eyes,

    hear with their ears,

    understand with their hearts

  and turn, and I would heal them.'

 

MT 13:16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17 For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

 

    MT 13:18 "Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. 22 The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. 23 But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown."

 

These people believed, but now they really believe?

JN 4:42 They said to the woman, "We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world."

 

Way too many issues here to be able to hold this Simon up as an example of one who got saved and lost it.

 

Lord Bless,

LT

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Permalink Reply by David Abel on February 17, 2011 at 6:50am

Hi LT. Why can't anyone just take the word "believe"/"believed" wherever it appears as "believe"/"believed"? :-)

 

Lots of OSAS proponents use John 3:16, that those who believe will not perish and have eternal life, so you can rest secure the rest of your life.

 

But when someone does believe, like Simon, it was not a true belief, not a belief unto salvation. I find it strange that the Greek does not diffentiate between different types of belief when pertaining to the Gospel and Jesus Christ, especially with the varied views that OSAS proponents bring to the table with this word "believe".

 

God Bless,

David A.

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 17, 2011 at 7:29am

David A.,

 

Simply because it is not that simple. It is more complex than simply making a statment of faith, there has to be repentance and a change of heart. Prove the change of heart and you have presented your case successfully. To prove someone who has been born-again has become unborn-again you have to establish that the transformation took place. There is no evidence in this case to support Simon was born-again. The whole of the argument rests on one word (believed) when the whole of the context speaks against the transformation in his life.

 

Note: I do not use OSAS. I believe in eternal security. That is not semantics to me. Not an arguing point, but for clarafication.

 

Lord Bless,

LT

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 17, 2011 at 7:30am

David A.,

 

The assurance of John 3:16 rests on the context of John 3. Jesus makes it clear that one must be born-again.

 

Lord Bless,
LT

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Permalink Reply by David Abel on February 17, 2011 at 11:56am

Hi LT. Thanks, I appreciate your response and understand what you are saying. I used the worst example for the first one! Now back to the drawing board for more! :-)

 

Actually, on a serious note, I am thinking about this more and keeping my mind open to both sides, i.e. eternal security being a possibility while in the flesh and to whom it applies, as well as eternal security NOT guaranteed until after death and with the Lord in glory. I still see no guarantees while still in the flesh.

 

I have more, but I will post it tomorrow / at a later time.

 

I hope that others post their responses as well.

 

God Bless,

David A.

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Permalink Reply by David Abel on February 18, 2011 at 1:20am

Hi LT

 

Psalm 51 clearly shows that God is able to cast away sinners and take away His Holy Spirit at His will, should the sinner not truly repent, otherwise much of Psalm 51 is unnecessary / wasted words. While this did not happen to David, it did happen, can happen and does happen to others, who are in God then unrepentant of severe sins. My thoughts indicated in {{...}} below the relevant verses.

 

Psalm 51 (Amplified Bible)

To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David; when Nathan the prophet came to him after he had sinned with Bathsheba.

 ¹HAVE MERCY upon me, O God, according to Your steadfast love; according to the multitude of Your tender mercy and loving-kindness blot out my transgressions.

    ²Wash me thoroughly [and repeatedly] from my iniquity and guilt and cleanse me and make me wholly pure from my sin!

    ³For I am conscious of my transgressions and I acknowledge them; my sin is ever before me.

 

{{vs1-3: David was impure before God in his current condition, and was crying out for God’s mercy and cleansing.}}

 

    ⁴Against You, You only, have I sinned and done that which is evil in Your sight, so that You are justified in Your sentence and faultless in Your judgment.^(A)

    ⁵Behold, I was brought forth in [a state of] iniquity; my mother was sinful who conceived me [and I too am sinful].^(B)

    ⁶Behold, You desire truth in the inner being; make me therefore to know wisdom in my inmost heart.

    ⁷Purify me with hyssop, and I shall be clean [ceremonially]; wash me, and I shall [in reality] be whiter than snow.

    ⁸Make me to hear joy and gladness and be satisfied; let the bones which You have broken rejoice.

    ⁹Hide Your face from my sins and blot out all my guilt and iniquities.

 

{{vs9: Why must God hide His face from David’s sins and blot out his GUILT and iniquities, unless David had fallen out of God’s favour and grace as a result of his sins and consequent guilt in God's eyes (concerning his sins involving Uriah and Bathsheba)?}}

 

    ¹⁰Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right, persevering, and steadfast spirit within me.

 

{{vs 10: David’s heart was NOT clean, but he had to pray for a CLEAN heart and a RENEWED spirit, after his sins.}}

 

    ¹¹Cast me not away from Your presence and take not Your Holy Spirit from me.

 

{{vs11: If God could not cast David out of His presence or take His Holy Spirit away from David at this point in David’s life after his sins, these are wasted words and have no place in the Bible. But because God in His sovereignty and power has the power to cast sinners out of His presence (who were once in His presence) and to take His Holy Spirit away from sinners (who once had His Holy Spirit), these very words of David are so necessary here.}}

 

    ¹²Restore to me the joy of Your salvation and uphold me with a willing spirit.

 

{{vs12: Yes, the JOY of God’s salvation and not salvation itself to be restored, but this verse cannot be disconnected from vs.11 and God’s power to cast away and take away.

Additionally, in David’s specific case, Nathan the prophet had already told David that God had taken away his sins and that he would not die, so he knew that his salvation was not compromised by his sins.}}

 

    ¹³Then will I teach transgressors Your ways, and sinners shall be converted and return to You.

    ¹⁴Deliver me from bloodguiltiness and death, O God, the God of my salvation, and my tongue shall sing aloud of Your righteousness (Your rightness and Your justice).

 

{{vs14: At this point of such sins in David’s life, he knew he was guilty of bloodshed and deserving of death (spiritual death). His own words confirm this, but through repentance and prayer, God showed him mercy and answered his prayer.}}

 

    ¹⁵O Lord, open my lips, and my mouth shall show forth Your praise.

    ¹⁶For You delight not in sacrifice, or else would I give it; You find no pleasure in burnt offering.^(C)

    ¹⁷My sacrifice [the sacrifice acceptable] to God is a broken spirit; a broken and a contrite heart [broken down with sorrow for sin and humbly and thoroughly penitent], such, O God, You will not despise.

 

{{vs16-17: This is not a Psalm of Old Covenant principles of the Law and sacrifices doing anything for sins, but rather of New Covenant principles of true confession and repentance, hence all the points raised applies to New Covenant believers.}}

 

    ¹⁸Do good in Your good pleasure to Zion; rebuild the walls of Jerusalem.

    ¹⁹Then will You delight in the sacrifices of righteousness, justice, and right, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering; then bullocks will be offered upon Your altar.

 

God Bless,

David A.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 18, 2011 at 6:09am

David A.,

 

Thank you for asking this question. It gives the opportunity to bring some carity to this topic and specific question. There is a difference between the old covenant and the new covenant. God dealt with the children of Israel according to the Old Covenant. He deals with His children according to the new covenant, which is in Jesus' blood.

 

 

LK 22:20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

 

1CO 11:25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me."

 

2CO 3:6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

2CO 3:7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was,

2CO 3:8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?

2CO 3:9 If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!

2CO 3:10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory.

2CO 3:11 And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

2CO 3:12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold.

2CO 3:13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away.

2CO 3:14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.

2CO 3:15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts.

2CO 3:16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

2CO 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

2CO 3:18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

 

HEB 9:10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings--external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

HEB 9:11 When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation.

HEB 9:12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.

HEB 9:13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean.

HEB 9:14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

HEB 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

 

HEB 9:10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings--external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

HEB 9:11 When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation.

HEB 9:12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.

HEB 9:13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean.

HEB 9:14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

HEB 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

 

HEB 12:24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

 

Lord Bless,

LT

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Permalink Reply by David Abel on February 18, 2011 at 6:30am

Hi LT. David took liberties and fell in areas where he should have died under penalty of the law in him taking such liberties and where he fell/sinned, but did not fall under punishment of the Old Covenant Laws, so in certain contexts/cases, the Old Covenant laws and principles did not apply to David, but rather New Covenant principles of grace.

 

Yes, Jesus did not die as yet and shed His Blood of the New Covenant when David was alive, but David definitely did not fall under the Old Covenant laws and judgement in certain instances.

 

Psalm 51 is such a Psalm, as David mentions:

 

¹⁶For You delight not in sacrifice, or else would I give it; You find no pleasure in burnt offering.^(C)

    ¹⁷My sacrifice [the sacrifice acceptable] to God is a broken spirit; a broken and a contrite heart [broken down with sorrow for sin and humbly and thoroughly penitent], such, O God, You will not despise.

 

{{vs16-17: This is not a Psalm of Old Covenant principles of the Law and sacrifices doing anything for sins, but rather of New Covenant principles of true confession and repentance, hence all the points raised applies to New Covenant believers.}}

 

God Bless,

David A.

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 18, 2011 at 7:16am

David A.,

  

Repentance is an old covenant principle, but it did not bring salvation (new birth in Christ), but a stay of God’s hand:

 

MT 11:21 "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

 

MT 12:41 The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here.

 

Now, may I ask, did David repent of his actions once confronted by God’s messenger?

 

2SA 12:1 The LORD sent Nathan to David. When he came to him, he said, "There were two men in a certain town, one rich and the other poor. 2 The rich man had a very large number of sheep and cattle, 3 but the poor man had nothing except one little ewe lamb he had bought. He raised it, and it grew up with him and his children. It shared his food, drank from his cup and even slept in his arms. It was like a daughter to him.

 

    2SA 12:4 "Now a traveler came to the rich man, but the rich man refrained from taking one of his own sheep or cattle to prepare a meal for the traveler who had come to him. Instead, he took the ewe lamb that belonged to the poor man and prepared it for the one who had come to him."

 

    2SA 12:5 David burned with anger against the man and said to Nathan, "As surely as the LORD lives, the man who did this deserves to die! 6 He must pay for that lamb four times over, because he did such a thing and had no pity."

 

    2SA 12:7 Then Nathan said to David, "You are the man! This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: `I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8 I gave your master's house to you, and your master's wives into your arms. I gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more. 9 Why did you despise the word of the LORD by doing what is evil in his eyes? You struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and took his wife to be your own. You killed him with the sword of the Ammonites. 10 Now, therefore, the sword will never depart from your house, because you despised me and took the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your own.'

 

    2SA 12:11 "This is what the LORD says: `Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity upon you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. 12 You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.' "

 

    2SA 12:13 Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD."

    Nathan replied, "The LORD has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. 14 But because by doing this you have made the enemies of the LORD show utter contempt, the son born to you will die."

 

    2SA 12:15 After Nathan had gone home, the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife had borne to David, and he became ill. 16 David pleaded with God for the child. He fasted and went into his house and spent the nights lying on the ground. 17 The elders of his household stood beside him to get him up from the ground, but he refused, and he would not eat any food with them.

 

    2SA 12:18 On the seventh day the child died. David's servants were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they thought, "While the child was still living, we spoke to David but he would not listen to us. How can we tell him the child is dead? He may do something desperate."

 

    2SA 12:19 David noticed that his servants were whispering among themselves and he realized the child was dead. "Is the child dead?" he asked.

    "Yes," they replied, "he is dead."

 

    2SA 12:20 Then David got up from the ground. After he had washed, put on lotions and changed his clothes, he went into the house of the LORD and worshiped. Then he went to his own house, and at his request they served him food, and he ate.

 

    2SA 12:21 His servants asked him, "Why are you acting this way? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!"

 

    2SA 12:22 He answered, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, `Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live.' 23 But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."

 

There are many principles in the old covnenant that have value to us today as guiding principles. That does not alter the reality that we live under the new and better covenant.

 

Lord Bless,
LT

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by David Abel on February 18, 2011 at 8:28am

Hi LT. Psalm 51 is a psalm of repentance, forgiveness, renewing/regeneration, grace and salvation, and NOT of the mere staying of God's hand in the life of David. All the themes (and probably more than I've mentioned) are in the psalm either directly or indirectly, e.g. salvation of God mentioned twice, forgiveness implied, etc. It accurately reflects New Covenant principles that apply to the believer today.

 

To clear away confusion regarding this very deep and very relevant psalm for believers today and that it applies in the New Covenant to us today, the Old Covenant has no place or relevance in the psalm anywhere, except in the last two verses after David had already applied New Covenant principles.

 

God Bless,

David A.

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